Messages

Hi,
We have not tested the leather with compound to work in a cold environment.
I would assume that by the time you are sitting in a van starting to work, you would have been using the heather in the car for a while, knowing myself, I would not work in a cold car.
By that time the leather would most probably be at a better temperature.
Or since you probably need to bring the stone in, bring the leather-wheel as well.

Sincerely,
Stig

Hi,
I wonder if we are discussing a minor "problem" here.
Thinning a knife is not something most sharpening centers are doing in my experience and I have meet a lot of them during my years at Tormek.
I can't remember someone who have mention this before. Thinning a blade every time you sharpen will change the way the knife was designed to work.
The comparison I can think of is a regular Mora carving knife, then you sharpen the hole edge on the Tormek without any difficulties. But again, that edge is about 10-12 mm on a new knife.
I'll talk to some of my contacts in the Knife manufacturing industry how they think about it as I can only reefer to my own experience.

Best,
Stig

Hi,
To bad that you already sent it.
Sometimes an e-mail to support@tormek.se is the fastest way to get information even if I highly appreciate all the knowledge and help shared between forum members.
When the part of the shaft where the stone is mounted is being trued, we also true the part where the bushing is to ensure that the stone and bushing has the same tolerances.

Sincerely,
Stig

Hi,
The shaft is precision-trued on the stone side. This might look a bit strange but gives better tolerances.
The weight of the stone makes the shaft to be in the bottom of the bushing and run within the tolerances.
In other word, your shaft should be exactly as we designed it.

Sincerely,
Stig

Hi,

This happens only with high-speed grinders. CBN wheels are designed to mainly be used on bench-grinders.

Sincerely,
Stig

I haven't read any further, but one CBN wheel manufacturer claims that the pure carbon in diamond wheels forms carbides with the other elements in steel, destroying the diamonds. http://www.optigrind.com/page_2538178.html

Mike

Grepper and Ken,
In the instruction video we actually have a tip of using tape if the user wants to protect his knifes. This is a bit time assuming so thats why we instead did the easy paper tip. What we found and was told was that a working chef don't care much about these scratches since they get them with a steel also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhA4uG9MUPU

Sincerely,
Stig

Ken,
CB posted this 2-3 hours after we won this award so he was pretty fast 

Best,
Stig

Thank you, this award made us proud 

Sincerely,
Stig

No problem, Ill do the same but in green :-)

Thanks for the reply.  (Hope you don't mind, I'll respond inside your quote).

Hi,
Thanks for pictures and interesting thoughts.

Designing a machine with a purpose to serve in the professional kitchen, where they count minutes and seconds in everything, the design and operation must be as easy as possible. A large issue is the hundred or thousands of different knifes that are on the market. There is no design that can sharpen absolute everything so the main goal is to find a design that work on most of them. During our research, the knifes that cbwx34 are using to demonstrate the problems he found, is of course the same knifes that we know needs more steps in the set up. We found this type of knifes to be less used in the professional kitchen than knives with the design on Mac, Global, Victorinox Grand Maître and very more brands and in general, knives with no bolster or handles that goes over the knifes blades back.

You're right about this, and to be fair, the NSF blades I referenced are difficult to sharpen in just about every sharpener.  I don't know how common they are, other than I see that Santoku style in use a lot when I got out to eat.  (Could be supplied by a local "knife rental" business, for all I know).  But I'm not sure I see a way to sharpen it on the T-2, without some sort of compromise.

Knifes of this type is more a butchers knife than a chef´s. A butcher normally have other machines available, especially on a plant. We did not make the T-2 to get into this area. Santuko knifes are in general easy to sharpen with the T-2.

We worked with some of the best chefs in the world before we started to sell the machine outside of Sweden.
They wanted a reliable machine to sharpen their knifes as fast as possible with the same result every time. We have a 100% positive feedback from the users we are addressing this machine to, from all our markets we now sell the machine on. In France, where the Sabatier design is common, we have sold hundreds of machines with no comments of problems from the chefs using the T-2.
They don't care about some minor scratches on the blade, they don't use the paper inlay, the knife is a tool to be used and they want it sharp at any time. As one of them said, he made more scratches with the steel he used before starting using the T-2.

I guess my question here would be, what is the common knife used in the U.S. in a commercial kitchen?  (I have no idea).  I don't disagree about the scratches... I think my point there was, if someone is looking at the T-2 as a sharpener to get and sharpen other people's knives... it's a bit of a pain to deal with, if you want to avoid scratching.  This really just reinforces its intended use.

We had discussions with knife manufacturers before offering this machine. I am not sure there is a most common knife in US. There are as much opinions about knifes that there is about cars. Which has all the same purpose. Get you from A to B. So more or less, we have to make a qualified guess after our research and discussions with companies who are in the business and make a machine to be targeted to so many blades as possible. About scratches, we are aware of those who want to sharpen knifes with a Damaskus blade (an example) , the paper is an easy way to protect the blade instead of taping the blade

I also have a couple of questions.  In the testing/feedback you conducted, did you ever find, over a period of time, a point where the knife needed a "professional sharpening", and/or a sharpening method outside of the T-2 being used?  Did any issues crop up such as the blade needing to be thinned, a recurve at the heel that had to be ground out, etc.? 

On thin blades it works fine to use the T-2 for a long time without thinning a blade. The angle stays at the same degree as used but what you will see is that the edge-line gets wider up on the blade. Using the correct rolling technique should not acquire the heel to be recurved. I guess that you are thinking about machines with very small and  stiff stones/wheels, they will produce a "fat" edge when it gets further up on a blade.

For a sharpening business, we don't recommend the T-2.
A T-8 with the jig system with SVM-00/45/140 can sharpen way more models of knifes. A knife sharpened and honed with the leather wheel gives a sharper knife than most common new knifes.

Totally agree.

This is why we recommend the T-2 to restaurants and chefs, who wanted a fast and reliable machine, that gives them sharp knifes 24/7 in the kitchen.

As usual, designing a tool or machine or whatever a thing is designed for, there is always things that are compensated for to make it work for so many users as possible.
We designed this machine for the professional kitchen. We know that there will be customers outside the initial group of intended users who will purchase this machine because it seems easier than using jigs but we try to use our marketing to get users to understand where the machines Tormek produces is supposed to be used.

Do you think there's a limit to the "style" of knife, for example the NSF knives, and should that be included in the limits of the guide?  Of do you see a way to sharpen them that I'm not seeing?  I do try and look for solutions to problems I encounter (for example the thickness of the Henckels that was brought up earlier), but in this case, I haven't found one... yet.

Of coarse there are limitations. As on our jigs, there are some tools in a toolgroup we can't sharpen with a jig. Many of our users will than adapt or make their own jig or sharpen freehand. As many have done on this forum :-)

I understand that a machine like this can maybe feel a bit as a threat to someone who is in the sharpening business and wants to find as many as possible problems with a machine like the T-2. In general no one will change something that works well for them. If a sharpening business always gives great service and high quality of sharpening, their customers won't search for other ways to sharpen.

I'm not sure if this part was to me specifically, but I don't have a sharpening business for kitchen knives, and am not wanting to "find problems".  Merely documenting what I found so far.

This was not meant directly to you. Writing this answer yesterday I was thinking of our DBS-22 jig. When we started to sell the DBS-22 jig, many store-owners hesitated to have it on display because they thought they would sell less drillbits. Which of course they did not. Some sold more expensive drillbits along with the jig instead.


Sincerely,
Stig

Thanks!

Hi,
Thanks for pictures and interesting thoughts.

Designing a machine with a purpose to serve in the professional kitchen, where they count minutes and seconds in everything, the design and operation must be as easy as possible. A large issue is the hundred or thousands of different knifes that are on the market. There is no design that can sharpen absolute everything so the main goal is to find a design that work on most of them. During our research, the knifes that cbwx34 are using to demonstrate the problems he found, is of course the same knifes that we know needs more steps in the set up. We found this type of knifes to be less used in the professional kitchen than knives with the design on Mac, Global, Victorinox Grand Maître and very more brands and in general, knives with no bolster or handles that goes over the knifes blades back.

We worked with some of the best chefs in the world before we started to sell the machine outside of Sweden.
They wanted a reliable machine to sharpen their knifes as fast as possible with the same result every time. We have a 100% positive feedback from the users we are addressing this machine to, from all our markets we now sell the machine on. In France, where the Sabatier design is common, we have sold hundreds of machines with no comments of problems from the chefs using the T-2.
They don't care about some minor scratches on the blade, they don't use the paper inlay, the knife is a tool to be used and they want it sharp at any time. As one of them said, he made more scratches with the steel he used before starting using the T-2.

For a sharpening business, we don't recommend the T-2.
A T-8 with the jig system with SVM-00/45/140 can sharpen way more models of knifes. A knife sharpened and honed with the leather wheel gives a sharper knife than most common new knifes.

This is why we recommend the T-2 to restaurants and chefs, who wanted a fast and reliable machine, that gives them sharp knifes 24/7 in the kitchen.

As usual, designing a tool or machine or whatever a thing is designed for, there is always things that are compensated for to make it work for so many users as possible.
We designed this machine for the professional kitchen. We know that there will be customers outside the initial group of intended users who will purchase this machine because it seems easier than using jigs but we try to use our marketing to get users to understand where the machines Tormek produces is supposed to be used.

I understand that a machine like this can maybe feel a bit as a threat to someone who is in the sharpening business and wants to find as many as possible problems with a machine like the T-2. In general no one will change something that works well for them. If a sharpening business always gives great service and high quality of sharpening, their customers won't search for other ways to sharpen.

Sincerely,
Stig

Wootz,

"What I can't agree with, is the "nerd" label - calls not to overscience sharpening can only halt progress."

I am sorry if you felt that I wrote this in a negative way. Its actually the opposite. When it comes to knifes I call myself and friends the same but with a positive tone.
The forum is a community with high understanding of Tormek and sharpening. English is not my born language and maybe nerd can only be used negatively? its time for a change if so.
Or come with an suggestion what we forum members can be called when we are going deeper in to details 

Sincerely,
Stig

Hi bobl.
The T- 2 is not the best machine for a sharpening service. Its made for the restaurant kitchen and small businesses that want an easy and good way to keep their knifes sharp.
We recommend a T-8 for everyone who has or are planning to make money with a Tormek machine.

We have a DWC-200 wheel, 320 grid instead of the 600 grid you have on the machine. Removes more steel but needs to be set up with the DWF-200 after using the coarser wheel.

Sincerely,
Stig

Well, It's not a microbevel. Its a polished edge.
Now, with this said, using much pressure over a long time can change the angle slightly. But I doubt that this is the reason for the result using the Bess system.
I will be in England during the weekend at the European Woodworking show and will have limited time in front of the computer.
I will try to get time to answer questions once a day if I see that I need to "jump" in to the discussion.

Sincerely,
Stig

Jan,

"Based on my calculations for a chisel at 25 degrees mounted with protrusion 50 mm in the SE-76 jig the difference between setting the diameter on 215 mm or 220 mm is 0.42° which is in compliance with your figure."

We checked some different protrusions and the result was between 0.01-0.05° which is not noticeable.

I would say we are down to really nerdy info now :-)

Of coarse there is a difference with a knife and a chisel.
It would be very interesting to know how the knifes are honed. Is the result the same when using the knife jig or honing freehand?

Best,
Stig

Hi all,
Very interesting topic.
Sharpening a chisel at 25-30 degrees the difference between setting the diameter on 215 mm or 220 mm is 0.46° when using the WM-200 angle-master.
Noticeable is that the angle will be less on 215 mm than 220 mm.

There are some things needed to be considered measuring this. Using stones to hone with will result in a different result than with a leather honing wheel.
The leather is so much softer than a stone that it will not round the edge. To round an edge you need to have much more angle difference than 1 degree.

The idea used by us and most manufacturers is that a increased polish on the tip will make the edge finer.
For knives this is common. You can have a original grind at 28 degree and a polished edge at 2-3 degrees. Almost like a secondary edge but hardly noticeable.
A chisel will not get a less sharp edge if the back is 100% plane. A rounded edge on a chisel is mostly because the back is not flattened correctly.

The LA-220 setting on the Angle master is necessary to get the burr of the edge. If we would have a setting of 215 mm the burr would be hard to hone away. The leather is very soft and the measurements could maybe be transferred to a stone but not on a leather honing wheel.

Honing is an issue where I think that practise makes all the difference. Using the jig to hone a chisels edge but free-hone the back can be tricky. It's easy to round the back and that's the issue in most cases. Setting the anglemaster at 220 as our design is,  will not be the reason for a rounded tip.

Sincerely,
Stig