This will be a somewhat lengthy post so I apologize in advance.
I've been sharpening knives all my life but about 8 years ago my kids bought me a set of Shun's. Ever since I've been attempting to get my other knives as sharp. Next came a Work Sharp, then a KO work sharp, then a Rikon 1x30, then another, next came a Wen then a buffer for Slotted paper wheels and finally a Tormek. I am now sharpening for clients.
After reading "knife Deburring" I have attempted to re create his techniques but am really struggling. I can get knives to 50 on the BESS using leather belts on the 1x30 using a variety of compounds but 50 is not attainable most of the time and I have to settle for 70 to 100 scores. EDIT: Depending on the steel of course.
I just set up my paper wheels with 6 micron polycrystalline diamonds and .25 mono diamonds with chromium oxide. I am able to improve the edge on edges ground on the Tormek but really struggling with convex edges.
Which brings me to my question...
What benefit does a rock hard felt wheel bring to the table? How do you measure that benefit? Is it a worthwhile investment or not?
No I don't want to sharpen everyone's knives to 50, but if I want to I would like to be able to consistently.
Thanks for your input,
Al
Y'all got some lofty goals! You SETTLE for 70-100 on the Bess? I would love to settle for that. ymmv Can't be of help, btaim Maybe your goals are not reasonable, but that is not for me to set. Good luck on your endeavors.
I can really sympathise with you here. I spent a long time trying to get Vadims protocols to work consistently with Tormek, rock hard felt wheel then slotted paper wheels with diamond pastes. I gave up in the end having identified that the problem was with the rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond. I could virtually never get it to progress in the right direction according to Vadims step by step protocols.
I have asked several times on the forum for others experiences/opinions on this with mixed replies so not got anywhere really. If I could get some concrete replies as to proper use or tips I might reconsider using it in my set up.
I'm sharpening lots of knives and gave up chasing sub 50 Bess and am happy with anything around 100, which indicates to me that I've apexed and completely removed the root of the burr. After a while the Bess tester becomes almost redundant as experience tells that you've achieved around a hundred. If I'm having trouble then the tester is still a useful tool.
So you are doing incredibly well with your 50 Bess scores!
But you've got that itch that needs to be scratched!
Maybe others can help you (and me) with the felt wheel issue?
As has been pointed out before, Vadim was obviously a master sharpener with amazing skills and a feel for it. Also he advocated 12 dps for most knives which I think will lower the Bess scores slightly. I standardise at 15 dps and it's not uncommon to achieve 70-80 Bess with my speedy protocols. Vadim no doubt would have got that to 50-60!
Best of luck.
I don't have a lot of experience with my rock hard felt wheel. However, having sharpened maybe 20 knives on it, I find I have good results (ie 20 BESS higher) results with hard steels (63+ HRC). With standard steels, I'm actually worsening my BESS scores.
I probably don't use it right, but now I'm more after edge retention than initial sharpness.
Quote from: Sir Amwell on January 25, 2025, 09:25:15 PMI can really sympathise with you here. I spent a long time trying to get Vadims protocols to work consistently with Tormek, rock hard felt wheel then slotted paper wheels with diamond pastes. I gave up in the end having identified that the problem was with the rock hard felt wheel with 1 micron diamond. I could virtually never get it to progress in the right direction according to Vadims step by step protocols.
I have asked several times on the forum for others experiences/opinions on this with mixed replies so not got anywhere really. If I could get some concrete replies as to proper use or tips I might reconsider using it in my set up.
I'm sharpening lots of knives and gave up chasing sub 50 Bess and am happy with anything around 100, which indicates to me that I've apexed and completely removed the root of the burr. After a while the Bess tester becomes almost redundant as experience tells that you've achieved around a hundred. If I'm having trouble then the tester is still a useful tool.
So you are doing incredibly well with your 50 Bess scores!
But you've got that itch that needs to be scratched!
Maybe others can help you (and me) with the felt wheel issue?
As has been pointed out before, Vadim was obviously a master sharpener with amazing skills and a feel for it. Also he advocated 12 dps for most knives which I think will lower the Bess scores slightly. I standardise at 15 dps and it's not uncommon to achieve 70-80 Bess with my speedy protocols. Vadim no doubt would have got that to 50-60!
Best of luck.
Thank you for your reply.
My initial thoughts are I'm not able to accurately set the angle. I've been using a the new angle setting device, I'll try the software today. The other possibility is that I only have one buffer so I don't have the progression of smaller micron grit on the paper wheels. Vadim stressed the need to go through a progression.
I also set quality kitchen knives at 15 dps.
And, just for the record, I'm not trying to sharpen everyone's knives that sharp, just mine for the challenge.
Along this line of thought... I am able to sharpen quality steel to sub 100's on the BESS using aluminum oxide belts and leather strops. The Tormek with a 1000 CBN wheel only nets me 180 on the BESS. That is after much stropping.
I'm wondering if using a leather belt with stropping compound on a low speed 1x30 Rikon actually burnishes the plasticized metal across the edge giving the knife a false edge of junk, but thin. Anyone know of any tests that have demonstrated that?
I've been using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste for years with what I am satisfied with as good results, typically around BESS 100, but I no longer check the actual BESS readings as it has been so consistent. I'm only sharpening standard steels.
Looking through the discussion, I do not see where anyone says much about the other aspects of the setup, some details that Vadim established as important. Using a Frontal Vertical Base for setting up the USB for clearance and angle control during the honing process. And angles set higher or lower than the grinding angle, depending on the type of steel. It may be reasonable to assume that you guys are also doing this, but it would be good to know this is the case.
Because I'm only sharpening standard steels, I'm always using an angle 1º to 2º higher than the sharpening angle, which is usually around 16º. My grinding steps are 180 CBN, DC, DF, DE Tormek diamond wheels, Tormek SJ and then the rock hard felt/1µ diamond paste and stropping on hanging leather strop. All the grinding steps are done at the same grinding angle, from the read USB, edge-leading. Only the rock hard felt wheel angle is changed for honing, from the FVB/front USB, edge-trailing.
Hi Rick. Thanks for your reply. Yes, for me you can take it as given that I'm well set and accustomed to altering honing angles accurately depending on steel and edge angle and using FVB.I'm interested to note in your post that you use the felt wheel just prior to a final strop on hanging leather.
I think the process I've been using is the same.
BUT, for standard mainstream steels the felt wheel, for me , invariably increases the Bess score significantly and then subsequent final honing, be it hanging leather or paper wheels with diamond lowers it a little but never in line with for example Vadims protocols.
So is there a lack of technique here? Or is there something else I'm missing?
The only time I've found a benefit with using the felt wheel is with Global knives as per Vadims suggestions, ie + 0.8 degrees on felt wheel then exact on leather wheel.
So maybe give more detail on your process for mainstream knives involving the rock hard felt wheel?
Describing pressure, number of passes etc?
In advance, thank you.
I have only peeked down the rabbit hole of honing and use an extra leather wheel with 1µ diamonds followed by a hanging strop. I believe the key to increased sharpness is using progressively lighter pressure as you move along each step. With my final diamond hone I exert not much more than the knife's weight. Since I do not have a means of accurately testing this theory other's opinions are welcome.
Quote from: RickKrung on February 01, 2025, 06:55:20 PMI've been using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste for years with what I am satisfied with as good results, typically around BESS, but I no longer check the actual BESS readings as it has been so consistent. I'm only sharpening standard steels.
Looking through the discussion, I do not see where anyone says much about the other aspects of the setup, some details that Vadim established as important. Using a Frontal Vertical Base for setting up the USB for clearance and angle control during the honing process. And angles set higher or lower than the grinding angle, depending on the type of steel. It may be reasonable to assume that you guys are also doing this, but it would be good to know this is the case.
Because I'm only sharpening standard steels, I'm always using an angle 1º to 2º higher than the sharpening angle, which is usually around 16º. My grinding steps are 180 CBN, DC, DF, DE Tormek diamond wheels, Tormek SJ and then the rock hard felt/1µ diamond paste and stropping on hanging leather strop. All the grinding steps are done at the same grinding angle, from the read USB, edge-leading. Only the rock hard felt wheel angle is changed for honing, from the FVB/front USB, edge-trailing.
Your consistent BESS number wasn't in your post.
I am just getting everything dialed in with my paper wheel/FVB setup. And, I just started using the Tormek honing wheel. (I have been using a leather belt on a low speed Rikon bench grinder).
Initially I used the angle setter and found that to be too inaccurate for this purpose. After using the app to set my angles I did have some success with both the Tormek leather wheel and the slotted paper wheels.
Preliminary, I imagine Vadim's results might be able to reproduced but measurements would have to be exact! I don't know about you, but it is very challenging to set a difference of .1 on the support bar. It's even more challenging using my FVB setup for the paper wheels as the brackets sent from Tormek have some slop in them.
To summarize, if I would be able to exactly match all of the different FVB angles and had 4 slotted paper wheels with the specified grit diamond pastes and a rock hard felt wheel, a steady hand and a lot of practice I might be able to recreate his results. My shop runith over... I just don't have space for an additional buffer.... Yet.
In the meantime, I find that if I hone on the leather wheel at the exact angle lightly I can achieve 120 on the Bess... even at 20 degrees. I am able to achieve even better results taking it to the paper wheels and following protocols depending on the steel type for at least the first pass. Subsequent passes have only degraded the edge so far.
And I said all that to say, I guess I'll spring for a rock hard paper wheel as some have success with it. I do intend to follow this journey to the end ( either me or the money runs out).
Thank you for all of your comments and expand sharing your expertise.
Al
Quote from: BPalv on February 04, 2025, 06:29:48 PMQuote from: RickKrung on February 01, 2025, 06:55:20 PMI've been using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste for years with what I am satisfied with as good results, typically around BESS, but I no longer check the actual BESS readings as it has been so consistent....snip...
Your consistent BESS number wasn't in your post. ...snip...
100 (now it is)
Quote from: Sir Amwell on February 03, 2025, 12:03:16 AMHi Rick. Thanks for your reply.
...snip...
So maybe give more detail on your process for mainstream knives involving the rock hard felt wheel?
Describing pressure, number of passes etc?
In advance, thank you.
Sir Amwell,
I have not been ignoring you request, just had to get through some stuff to were I could think more clearly. I'm not sure that has helped much, however, as I'm not sure how much I can say about my process that will inform much.
I use a sequence of CBN/diamond wheels, 180 CBN, DC, DF, DE. I start at the heel and move to the tip, mostly lifting. I DO go back the other way often. Pressure is light to moderate at most. I take as many passes on the CBN as it takes to raise a burr from both sides. Sometimes there are portions, mainly in the middle that take longer to raise a burr, but I work nearly all the length across the non-curved portion. Once the burr has been raised, it doesn't take but a pass or two on the DC, DF and DE wheels to refine the edge. I use black marker on EVERY edge, EVERY wheel change. In part as this helps me know when I've ground enough with each wheel, as well as checking the burr under mangification often. I use the Kingmas 60X hand microscope for that.
Then it is to the SJ wheel, at the same angle as the previous wheels. For angle setting, I use only the distance from the USB to the wheel surface, using one of CB's calculators, calipers and a rubber band stretch from the USB to the axle shaft. Sometimes I have to remove the nut to expose enough shaft to hold the rubber band. Again, use black marker and again only a couple passes, pressure is about the same as with the others. All of this is done edge-leading from the rear USB, while sitting in front of the T8.
Honing is done edge-trailing on the rock hard felt wheel, using 1µ diamond paste, applied sparingly and spread out as evenly as possible. Angle is set 1-2º higher than the grinding angle, again using the distance to the wheel, rubber band, calculator and calipers. I think I use more pressure in this operation but only a couple passes. Final strop on a hanging leather (kangaroo tail, from Vadim) strop. Angle is fairly flat, so lower than honing or grinding, I believe.
A long time ago, when I was doing BESS testing, the best I could do was around 90 BESS, but was consistently around 100-110.
Hope this helps,
Rick
Thanks for that Rick.
One last question.
When you say 1 micron diamond paste.
You literally mean the oily paste?
Or the emulsion (usually in alcohol)?
If the paste, where do you get it from?
Regards, Simon.
Guess it would be the oily paste. What Vadim originally recommended, before switching to emulsions. I started using it before the emulsions and I never had any reason to switch. Image below came from Knife Grinders web site, sometime after he found the sprays.
THK Online Store (https://www.thk.hk/online-cart.php?cid=38) is where I got mine. I saw a link to something on eBay but did not look at it. I bought a range of grits, from 15µ down to 0.25µ, but I've only ever used the 1µ. Second image is what I use, about half down after six years, so it doesn't take much. Its messy. When you get to the tips, little strings peel of and get on the machine and table. Takes more than alcohol to clean up, residual on the blades and other surfaces. I'm sure it would make a mess on a felt wheel that would be hard to clean, so if you try it, I think you'd be dedicating the wheel to that only.
I've never used the emulsions or sprays, so I have no reference for comparison.
Rick
I wonder if this is part of the equation:
Excerpt from Tormek Compound or Venev Diamond? (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5684.msg41842.html#msg41842) thread:
Quote from: joe103 on February 11, 2025, 03:26:54 AMUpdate:
Regarding my BESS scores, I went back to Vadim's book and realized that I'd missed something. At the beginning of the Deburring chapter, he states that positive burr steels need to be honed higher than the edge angle. Specifically 2 degrees higher for mainstream steels. Then later in the chapter where he discusses his "differential honing", he states that his FIRST pass is at exactly the edge angle, THEN he goes to the higher angle. When I did that I suddenly started getting 70 to 90 BESS scores.
...snip...
Given that before honing with the 1µ micron diamonds at a higher angle, I first use the SJ wheel at the same angle as sharpening, perhaps it is functioning in the manner as Vadim's "differential honing". I've read and taken that use of the SJ wheel is not really honing, but rather polishing, but maybe it is more than that.
Rick
Just to add another voice, I've also not had much luck recreating Vadim's results with felt wheels. Nor did I using paper wheels, which I generally don't like anyway due to rapid heat build up. I do my post-sharpening stropping on a Ken Onion with the blade grinder attachment. For common steels, I do a couple passes with a leather belt and 1 micron diamond at +1.5°, followed by a couple passes with another leather belt and PA-70 compound at the sharpening angle. That usually nets me a sub-100 BESS score, although sometimes it takes a minute or two hand stropping (.5 micron and/or .25 micron) on bass wood to get there.
Paper Wheels with diamond paste & oil do not overheat an edge.
Vadim's research & testing also proved that.
A Paper Wheel using the standard silicon carbide grit will also not overheat an edge, provided you use enough wax on it's surface so there is a complete coverage.
This is critical, and the wax is best applied like a crayon on a wheel that is turned by hand.
Vadim has documented his findings here: http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Heat_in_Sharpening.pdf
Quote from: kwakster on February 12, 2025, 07:28:25 PMPaper Wheels with diamond paste & oil do not overheat an edge.
Vadim's research & testing also proved that.
A Paper Wheel using the standard silicon carbide grit will also not overheat an edge, provided you use enough wax on it's surface so there is a complete coverage.
This is critical, and the wax is best applied like a crayon on a wheel that is turned by hand.
I gotta say, if you pull your knife across the wheel less than 5 mm a second I think you would still possibly hurt the temper. I think that is documented in Wootz's work.
IMHO it wouldn't take much to heat a quarter micron thickness at the apex.
Quote from: BPalv on February 13, 2025, 12:41:50 AMQuote from: kwakster on February 12, 2025, 07:28:25 PMPaper Wheels with diamond paste & oil do not overheat an edge.
Vadim's research & testing also proved that.
A Paper Wheel using the standard silicon carbide grit will also not overheat an edge, provided you use enough wax on it's surface so there is a complete coverage.
This is critical, and the wax is best applied like a crayon on a wheel that is turned by hand.
I gotta say, if you pull your knife across the wheel less than 5 mm a second I think you would still possibly hurt the temper. I think that is documented in Wootz's work.
IMHO it wouldn't take much to heat a quarter micron thickness at the apex.
Yes, if you go too slow you can absolutely smoke an edge, and it also depends a lot on pressure. Part of my problem is that every paper wheel I've tried has been slightly out of round and it takes some pressure to keep the edge from bouncing. I just don't see an advantage over leather belts, which produce very little heat.
The standard Paper grit Wheel using glued on ~180 to ~220 grit silicon carbide can overheat an edge only if too little wax is used while at the same time your sharpening passes are too slow.
If you avoid this i haven't experienced overheated edges, and i have a very simple process to check for that.
I've tested this on various knives (among which a few good quality Tojiro VG10 kitchen knives) well before i told Vadim about Tempilstick, which he then used to do more testing.
Pressure can also play a role; too much will be counterproductive in several ways.
I always recommend to let the Wheel do the work and use a light touch.
On my own Paper grit Wheel i later replaced the glued on silicon carbide grit with glued on diamond grit.
I have found this to work more efficiently on especially high vanadium carbide steel types, plus diamond has the added advantage of a much higher thermal conductivity compared to silicon carbide, a property which very effectively wicks heat away from the apex being sharpened and transfers it directly into the wax which dissipates it further by continuously melting & solidifying during the sharpening process.
Because diamond also has a rather low tolerance for heat you absolutely need a coolant like wax or oil.
I think CBN would be an even better choice than diamond for Paper Wheel sharpening, as it has a much higher tolerance for heat while still having a lot of thermal conductivity (though not as much as diamond)
The combination of diamond paste (which already contains oil) with certain other oils seems to combine these properties even more efficiently, especially when using progressively finer grits, which normally have a higher chance of heat build-up compared to more coarse grits.
Using Paper Wheels with diamond pastes & oil gives me highly polished edges, that also last for quite a while.
I also use my Tormek T7 fitted with an SB-250 stone quite a lot because besides being watercooled & airborne dust free it can also do a few things i can't do (as well) with Paper Wheels.
Quote from: RickKrung on February 01, 2025, 06:55:20 PMI've been using a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste for years with what I am satisfied with as good results, typically around BESS 100, but I no longer check the actual BESS readings as it has been so consistent. I'm only sharpening standard steels.
Looking through the discussion, I do not see where anyone says much about the other aspects of the setup, some details that Vadim established as important. Using a Frontal Vertical Base for setting up the USB for clearance and angle control during the honing process. And angles set higher or lower than the grinding angle, depending on the type of steel. It may be reasonable to assume that you guys are also doing this, but it would be good to know this is the case.
Because I'm only sharpening standard steels, I'm always using an angle 1º to 2º higher than the sharpening angle, which is usually around 16º. My grinding steps are 180 CBN, DC, DF, DE Tormek diamond wheels, Tormek SJ and then the rock hard felt/1µ diamond paste and stropping on hanging leather strop. All the grinding steps are done at the same grinding angle, from the read USB, edge-leading. Only the rock hard felt wheel angle is changed for honing, from the FVB/front USB, edge-trailing.
Hearkening back to this conversation and the two following that related to it (#7 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5693.msg41778.html#msg41778) and #11 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5693.msg41841.html#msg41841)), I decided to do a little testing. I have about 14 knives from a friend's set of Wusthof Dreizack Grand Prix knives. I've sharpened these before, all at 16º and it is time for a redo. I wanted to test for any difference between "grinding/polishing" with the SJ wheel at the bevel angle versus 2º greater, both followed by honing on a rock hard felt wheel with 1µ diamond paste and then stropping on a hanging leather strop. Here are the results:
SJ Grinding Honing Test 02-19-25.JPG
First off, I must eat a little crow. My claims of consistently achieving 100-110 BESS are a bit off the mark, at least with the way it is working for me now. Not sure what is different, but that is for another time. One thing that I am unsure of is that I strictly followed the above regiment. I noticed afterward that the wheel diameter in the calculator for the SJ wheel may have been 254mm (that of my 180 grit CBN wheel and RHF wheel) instead of the SJ wheel's actual diameter of 246.7mm. Not sure of that, but I have eight more steak knives to do, so if I'm feeling up to it, might try this test again.
On the the results.
1) SJ wheel at the grinding angle seemed to produce slightly lower BESS scores than at 2º above the bevel grinding angle.
2) Honing all at 2º higher than the bevel angle improved sharpness for all but the SJ at the angle plus honing showed the lowest scores.
3) Stropping significantly improved the set ground with the SJ at 2º higher and resulted in BESS scores relatively similar to the SJ at the same angle as the bevel.
4) Stropping did not improve sharpness for the blades ground/polished at the same angle as the bevel beyond that achieve only with honing on the RHF wheel with 1µ micron diamond paste. But stropping did seem to improve sharpness of the blades both SJ ground and honed at 2º above the grinding angle. These samples are far too limited to make very strong inferences, however.
Rick
Thanks for this Rick. Interesting.
From what I understand (and I may be wrong in this) your Bess scores would indicate that complete burr removal has not been achieved. This is not a criticism of you because you have freely given this info at cost of time and effort to yourself to try to answer some questions. Researching.
From somewhere I remember Vadim stating that a score of over 120 Bess is indicative of incomplete burr removal.
So, polishing on the SJ wheel at exact or +2 is not completely removing burr?
Honing on the felt wheel is not removing burr completely either?
And a final strop on kangaroo is also not achieving it?
So I return to my original post on this topic.
Does anyone have success using the felt wheel for honing?
I never did which is why I stopped using it.
I now do much the same process as 3D Anvil mentions,
Whilst the results are a bit variable, they are consistently lower than 120 Bess ( my bench mark, I never let a knife back to my customers above 120), and if I am suspicious about an edge ( paper tests, rizla paper tests, shaving etc), I Bess test and then hanging Roo strop and this usually takes a 140 score to below 120.
For me this is so much quicker and less fiddle faddle than all the felt/ SJ wheel stuff and suits me for batch sharpening of conventional knife steels. Higher end, higher hardness steels just require a slight adjustment of the leather belt honing stage.
Having said all that, what you are doing IS research and therefore valuable so id be interested in any further results. It's all adding to the data base of knowledge and someone will find it useful.
Thanks again.
Quote from: Sir Amwell on February 19, 2025, 10:41:21 PMThanks for this Rick. Interesting.
From what I understand (and I may be wrong in this) your Bess scores would indicate that complete burr removal has not been achieved. This is not a criticism of you because you have freely given this info at cost of time and effort to yourself to try to answer some questions. Researching.
From somewhere I remember Vadim stating that a score of over 120 Bess is indicative of incomplete burr removal.
...snip...
Shucks, isn't that embarrassing... :-[ As you say, it is good information. I take no offense.
At some point, I'll have to re-evaluate my process, see if there is something I'm not doing the same, or if something else has changed. I'm pretty certain I'm getting good burrs all along the edges, so it must be in the honing. Unfortunately, the best I'll get for a while is to maybe make a few more passes in the SJ and honing steps or more pressure with these remaining knives. Too much else on the plate and frankly, what I'm getting is good enough for getting by.
Be well,
Rick
Should change the Subject to "SJ Wheel Honing".
Took another stab at it, but this time, mostly just used the SJ wheel for honing. Eight identical Wusthof Dreizack Grand Prix steak knives. First one, the SJ wheel was used at the grinding angle (16º) and then the rock hard felt wheel was tried at two angles, 16º and 17º, followed by stropping on a hanging leather strop. Not much better than before. Subsequent seven knives only the SJ wheel was used for honing, again at 16º and 17º. Knives 2-4 were stropped after honing. Knives 5-8 were honed after 16º and after 17º. A little mixed up, but hopefully something useful.
SJ Grinding Honing Steak Knife Test 02-20-25.jpg
Honing with the rock hard felt wheel degraded the edge, similarly to earlier. Honing with the SJ wheel at either 16º or 17º followed by stropping on a hanging leather strop, while starting out really high (BESS 250-389) stropping improved to sorta-kinda removing the burr in some cases (BESS 100-120) and almost in other cased (122-136). Honing with the SJ wheel at 16º and then at 17º does not appear useful, but it is hard to conclude this due to the leather strop honing between those two.
From this, I think I'll dispense with using the rock hard felt wheel and just use the SJ wheel for honing, if followed by the hanging leather strop. Might be worth trying SJ honing at 2º over the grinding angle and maybe at a negative from the grinding angle (-0.5 to -1º).
Rick
Rick,
Thanks for the extensive testing and for sharing your results.
This subject of SJ and honing has been of interest to me since my first session with a SJ.
Why do you call what you do with the SJ wheel "honing", when the (300ish) BESS scores clearly indicate that there is still a burr ?
Also, do you know what the BESS scores were right after initial grinding ? Do you think you could get a quick order of magnitude of the BESS score after another grind on the *SG* wheel at the same angle ?
I know that's asking a lot, no worries if you can't. Thank you again for the time you've already devoted to this.
Nick.
Quote from: tgbto on February 21, 2025, 10:51:25 AMRick,
Thanks for the extensive testing and for sharing your results.
This subject of SJ and honing has been of interest to me since my first session with a SJ.
Why do you call what you do with the SJ wheel "honing", when the (300ish) BESS scores clearly indicate that there is still a burr ?
Also, do you know what the BESS scores were right after initial grinding ? Do you think you could get a quick order of magnitude of the BESS score after another grind on the *SG* wheel at the same angle ?
I know that's asking a lot, no worries if you can't. Thank you again for the time you've already devoted to this.
Nick.
That's a good question. Best I can say is, I was taking the mindset that the SJ wheel could be used for honing, so just called it that. Was it someone at Tormek that made that claim? I've always thought of it as polishing rather than honing.
I don't have much on the scores after grinding, before putting them to the SJ. 369 and 602 is all.
Rick,
To start with, thank you for taking the time to compile those numbers.
How do use the rubber bands?
The process I am using is as follows:
I grind most kitchen knives at 15 degrees on the SG-250 unless supersteels. I grate the stone with diamonds plates as necessary and typically finish at what I precieve to be 1000. I hone on the Tormek honing with FVB with Tormek paste at the exact angle. (I plan on testing + something). After 2 passes on the honing wheel I go to a 10" slotted paper wheel with 6 micron pollycrystaline diamonds at +.4 to +2. Still attempting to figure this out as each steel reacts differently or I'm not consistent in my efforts. I am using FVB's on the paper wheel setup. I then go back to the Tormek wheel at the exact angle and using no pressure (knife weight only) make one or two passes. This usually nets me around 110 most of the time.
I have tried honing with a 1×30 leather strop at a low speed with Tormek paste at the exact angle and on quality steels I usually get 100 or as low as 70. I have tried 6 micron, 3 micron, 1 and .25 diamond strops but rarely get as good of score as the Tormek paste.
I said all that to ask if the Rock Hard felt wheels would improve my scores but after reading everyone's results I don't think it will.
It seems there are many of us that can achieve 100 with many different ways. Interestingly no one that has posted on here has stated they can duplicate Vadim's results.
I have hit 50 a couple times and 70 isn't terribly uncommon but once I get to 110 success seems to become consistent.
I'll keep trying.
Quote from: tgbto on February 21, 2025, 10:51:25 AM...snip...
I know that's asking a lot, no worries if you can't. Thank you again for the time you've already devoted to this.
Nick.
Didn't think I'd be back at it with these knives for quite a long time, but it turns out I missed a paring knife and failed to grab a hooked/beak shaped paring knife from the box, so two more today. Per the request, I meant to get both after grinding and before the SJ. Only wrote down one, 567, but I'm pretty sure the other one was pretty similar. Kind of a surprise they are so high.
SJ Grinding Honing Paring Knives 02-21-25.jpg
Rick, thanks a lot for all the effort.
It seems fair to say that the SJ refines the edge but still leaves a significant burr that is afterwards removed by honing.
Quote from: John_B on February 03, 2025, 10:42:29 PMI have only peeked down the rabbit hole of honing and use an extra leather wheel with 1µ diamonds followed by a hanging strop. I believe the key to increased sharpness is using progressively lighter pressure as you move along each step. With my final diamond hone I exert not much more than the knife's weight. Since I do not have a means of accurately testing this theory other's opinions are welcome.
As of late I have been able to match Vadim's efforts on one steel (Wusthof classic 55). I was able to achieve this edge consistently, by following similar procedures. So to start with, you don't need to follow his procedures exactly to achieve his results. I will say, to achieve these results I did indeed use extremely light pressure on the hone, only the pressure of the knife.
I was able to get the knife to 60 with the Tormek paste, It didn't drop to 55 until after I honed it on 1 micron diamonds... ever so lightly.
I could post my procedure but the key take away is that this edge was achieved using a slightly different technique. As John had mentioned, a light touch is critical, let the abrasive finish for you.
Quote from: RickKrung on February 11, 2025, 02:39:31 AMQuote from: Sir Amwell on February 03, 2025, 12:03:16 AMHi Rick. Thanks for your reply.
...snip...
So maybe give more detail on your process for mainstream knives involving the rock hard felt wheel?
Describing pressure, number of passes etc?
In advance, thank you.
Sir Amwell,
I have not been ignoring you request, just had to get through some stuff to were I could think more clearly. I'm not sure that has helped much, however, as I'm not sure how much I can say about my process that will inform much.
I use a sequence of CBN/diamond wheels, 180 CBN, DC, DF, DE. I start at the heel and move to the tip, mostly lifting. I DO go back the other way often. Pressure is light to moderate at most. I take as many passes on the CBN as it takes to raise a burr from both sides. Sometimes there are portions, mainly in the middle that take longer to raise a burr, but I work nearly all the length across the non-curved portion. Once the burr has been raised, it doesn't take but a pass or two on the DC, DF and DE wheels to refine the edge. I use black marker on EVERY edge, EVERY wheel change. In part as this helps me know when I've ground enough with each wheel, as well as checking the burr under mangification often. I use the Kingmas 60X hand microscope for that.
Then it is to the SJ wheel, at the same angle as the previous wheels. For angle setting, I use only the distance from the USB to the wheel surface, using one of CB's calculators, calipers and a rubber band stretch from the USB to the axle shaft. Sometimes I have to remove the nut to expose enough shaft to hold the rubber band. Again, use black marker and again only a couple passes, pressure is about the same as with the others. All of this is done edge-leading from the rear USB, while sitting in front of the T8.
Honing is done edge-trailing on the rock hard felt wheel, using 1µ diamond paste, applied sparingly and spread out as evenly as possible. Angle is set 1-2º higher than the grinding angle, again using the distance to the wheel, rubber band, calculator and calipers. I think I use more pressure in this operation but only a couple passes. Final strop on a hanging leather (kangaroo tail, from Vadim) strop. Angle is fairly flat, so lower than honing or grinding, I believe.
A long time ago, when I was doing BESS testing, the best I could do was around 90 BESS, but was consistently around 100-110.
Hope this helps,
Rick
Wow Sir, what an amazing clear and concise procedure. Simply wow!
I'd like to thank you and others. You guys and gals if you're will, are teaching me beyond to what l can express. Every time I come on board and read all your posts it just leaves me in ah. No patronizing here with my post. I am just so grateful to have an outlet such as this to learn from.
Thank you thank you