This just in on the UK woodworking forum I moderate...
LuptonM wrote:
Hi all,
Was feeling very flush last week. Whipped by wallet out and bought a "tormek" at an auction last week.
Only minor drawback is that t it appears to a retro drill powered antique.
Looks similar to this one:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=st+25 ... aEVftxM%3A
I don't have the original drill shaft accessory so though it would be interesting if I could somehow attach a motor to the thing.
The motor will need to be low RPM (output between 100-150 rpm) and high torque.
Problems are:
1) where do I get a suitable motor for a reasonable price? I am not too clued up on electrical motors. The motor need to be enough powerful to handle the friction of pressing the blades against the stone
2) once I have the motor how do I transfer the power to the tormek to get the best performance? I think tormeks use a wheel against a wheel but could pulleys be used for less slippage?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And my advice was...
Go to the Tormek forum (http://forum.tormek.com/index.php). Make your post and ask Ken S (the moderator). He will help you. Tormek closely monitor the forum and a chap called Stig (from Tormek) may be in touch to connect you with whoever may have parts. Brimarc is the UK distributor and they just replaced a part in my Tormek although it is a T7 and not as old as the one you're discussing. In the main, Tormek are good at solving technical problems like this and many of their machines are backwardly compatible so you've got a reasonable chance of success if you follow my advice. Ken S....nice bloke :-) We wont hold the fact he's American against him :-)
So there may be a post from this chap in the near future....interesting machine actually isn't it? Was that the first ever model I wonder?
Rob,
My first suggestion would be to contact support in Sweden (support@tormek.se).
I have not seen an original drill powered Tormek. The drive wheel, the part you replaced, is what causes the speed reduction from the motor to the grinding wheel. My advice would be to use another drill, if he still has or can get the bracket.
With a properly maintained rubber drive wheel, slippage should not be a problem.
This has the potential to be a very interesting Tormek for Tormek buffs, as well as a very workable tool. It may or may not be an inexpensive Tormek.
Would you please check the google link? I could not get it to open photos.
I am curious to know what support advises and how this project advances.
Ken
Such an old machine is valuable when it is complete but unfortunately this is not. The missing drive can be relatively easily replaced, but the question is whether the machine has some jigs. For a woodworker at least the Square edge jig is necessary.
Old Tormek grinders are without the USB and without the honing wheel! In my understanding they cannot be used to grind turning gouges. ???
Jan
Thanks guys. I'm in the x Ray waiting room with my son. Will jump on this when I get home.
Rob,
You may not be part of the EU, however, you and your family are still part of us. Our best wishes are with you and your family.
Ken
Hi all,
First timer to the Tormek forum.
I would be the original poster from the UKWorkshop forum.
I got the machine at a local auction for about £45. Looked like it might of been used once or twice so I thought it would be worth a punt.
I will get some pictures later this week or at the weekend but its a pretty solid unit. I don't have any jigs for it but it looks like it will take the new tormek jigs as it as a long support bar rather than a short one.
I have tried a drill with a metal bar inserted and it does turn the wheel. However it does stop easily with a little pressure of a blade on the wheel. If someone is able to press the drill against the wheel there is no slippage but of course this requires another pair of hands and also will lead to the honing wheel becoming worn out.
I think the reason they chose a drill for the original tormek is that it has roughly the right amount of power (say 400-800 watts) and has a suitable rpm. This roughly equates to a 1/8 -1/4hp motor. It doesn't seem to be very easy to get a powerfulish motor with that many rpm.
Tormek do sell replacement motors but these are very expensive (something ridiculous like 199 euros) and was hoping to find an off the shelf solution (ie easy to replace if something breaks or something that can be scavenged from a low value item)
I had a look at pulleys yesterday, and for a 1400 rpm motor you would need a small pulley of 50mm and a large pulley of 250mm to get the motor down into the 200rpm range. A pulley of that size isn't really practical to attach to a tormek. I am not sure if gears could get a rpm of that motor down enough though.
Although more rpm is better, there will be a speed of which water just gets flicked everywhere. I read a review of a Jet tormek copy and the reviewer stated at 150rpm it started to get messy!
Anyway I will get some pictures and then hopefully some clever clogs will be able to figure it out!!!
Just to close the UK forum loop Luptom....I'll leave you in the capable hands of the Tormek group. You'll not meet a more friendly and helpful group I can be quite certain of that.
I'm not sure if there is one answer to your q.
First I wouldn't suspect your Tormek motor is in bad condition and need to be exchanged. If I understood it right.
The hole idea/ concept of the motor hanging and friction is to behave like that. I would take of the honing wheel and clean the inside of it and the rubber on the driving wheel, as well as the motor shaft.
Than continue with q. if it wouldn't help.
Pls. attach some pictures of the machine and parts.
Marc (LuptoM), welcome to the forum.
You may have the senior Tormek. I suggest you go to tormek.com and to the register tab on the left. You can register your Tormek. There is an option for older, pre-serial number models. Once you register, you can move to the handbook tab and download the latest edition of the handbook. I have it in ibooks on my ipad. It is a useful reference.
You should also contact support@tormek.se That gets you into Tormek support, your best source of information, especially for older Tormeks. Ask them if they can scan and email all or part of the original handbook. I don't know if this is possible; I would ask and save the email. In any case, support can help get you up and running.
A slipping grinding wheel is usually cured by just lightly sanding the rubber drive wheel. I suggest you wait until hearing back from support before doing this.
My prediction is that after a little advice from support you will get very satisfactory results with a good electric drill. If so, you will have the best deal going for a Tormek, and also have a good electric drill. Your Tormek will also reflect the inventor, Torgny Jansson's original idea.
I look forward to seeing the photos you will post.
Ken
Pictures of the machine as promised
(http://i66.tinypic.com/ng7imp.jpg)
(http://i68.tinypic.com/af90mt.jpg)
LuptoM, thank you for posting the photos of your Tormek ST-250. At the first glance the machine is in a good shape. The major think is that it has the universal support bar which enables to use all current Tormek jigs. What concerns the drive, I would try to stay with the power drill, as it was designed for. The only drawback is the absence of the honing wheel.
For £45 it was a good acquisition, I would have bought it also! :)
Jan
I would have jumped on that as well. Can you post a picture of the outside of the stone side as well? (that I think is the original, non man made stone)
Is the rubber wheel supposed to be a rubber honing wheel as well as a drive wheel?
I do not think so! The standard leather honing wheel must be impregnated with the honing compound which would cause slippage of the motor shaft.
Jan
I will look up your model in my early handbook at home. Probably no answer until the weekend. Support can help you with your drive wheel.
Nice photos; I would definitely go the electric drill route. Support may be able to guide you toward a good drill for your Tormek.
A third vote that I would have bought your Tormek. Good find!
Ken
Wow this is history.
http://www.tormek.com/images/div/40-years-of-innovation-en_800.jpg
Didn't realise it was that old and built that way with drill machine as origin to drive it.
I would rather save it as artifact then use it, even if it would work.
I could not find a model ST250 in my earliest handbook. However, it did have a parts list for a model SuperGrind 1002, which looks quite similar. It shows a drive shaft for drill. The drawing shows only part of the part. Do you have this part?
This is definitely a situation for support. Stig'g crew can tell you if your drive wheel just needs some light dressing with sandpaper or replaced. It may even be the same part as later models. If you do not have the drive shaft for drill, and if Tormek can provide one, I will be quite impressed. If they no longer carry that ancient part, they should be able to email you detailed specifications to have a machine shop make one for you. Unless I am mistaken, it should be a very simple part, easily made up, even by a home shop machinist. It looks like a rod with one end sized to fit into a drill chuck and the other end sized to contact the drive wheel.
I would also ask support for specific recommendations for an electric drill. It must fit the bracket and the speed must work well with the final drive wheel speed.
The model numbering may have varied somewhat by country or area.
Keep us posted; this is interesting.
Ken
I did a Google image search online and it makes me wonder if this really is an early one, or one closer to 84. There are some I saw that didn't have the Tormek Support bar we all know, and the drill holder looks in a slightly different place (trick photography, or did it move). With this one it almost looks like the drill mechanism would place the drill inside the wheel, where one may be able to use a nutdriver bit on the inside lip. (maybe wrap a piece of tape for better grip)
here are some links that might be able to help figure out the drive mech as well as showing some differences:
www.flickr.com/photos/55973621@N06/sets/72157630041685187/
http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworking/forum/archives_handtools.pl/bid/3108/md/read/id/127588/sbj/a-closer-tormek-relative/
Looks like 1/4" drill was recommended at one point.
I don't have the original drill shaft. Currently trying a metal rod with some rubber stuck at the end (just waiting for the glue to dry so its doesn't slip off.). With a hammer drill in normal drilling mode its seems to work pretty well and I can now longer stop the wheel using pressure.
I've ordered the SE 77 square jig, so once I have it I'll post a video of it working.
As far as I can tell, the universal support bar must have been invented between 1978 and 1984 and installed on the later st-250 models before they released the SA-250 which is motor powered.
The grinding wheel is cream coloured and doesn't have a sticker on the side so I am assuming its an original wheel. Is there anything special about it?
Have you heard from support?
Ken
ps I think leap frogging to the new SE-77 was a wise choice.
Don't know about support on the weekend.
In this thread: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2863.msg15246#msg15246
Quote from: Stickan on February 08, 2016, 09:03:33 AM
Hi all,
As Ken S stated, these stones was from a small Island outside Swedens east coast called Gotland. It's many swedes favourite vacation place.
These stones was more sensitive to be left in water and it took longer to sharpen and definitely to remove steel.
The SG stone we made are better in every way, they last longer, don't swell, gives a better/cleaner edge and sharpens faster.
But at that time the Tormek natural stone was the best we had to offer!
Best,
Stig
Makes me think the stone was in between what an SG and a SJ wheel would be.
The Flicker link I posted, makes me wonder if a bolt went from the inside out, through a bushing, and was turned by the drill. (drive mech)
This picture here (if works): www.flickr.com/photos/55973621@N06/7361860682/in/album-72157630041685187/ (posting with https doesn't seem to work so probably have to cut and paste).
The SA models, were self powered and had a rubber coated polishing wheel (closer to what the commercial T2 model uses) while the early ST models, mech, appear to be similar to the T2 on the one side, with a planer blade/chisel jig mounted to the other side. Here is a thread about them:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=845.msg1843#msg1843
I hope this helps some.
I've asked support and there isn't a copy of the manual dating that far back!
With regard to the drill insert, apparently its just a 6mm diameter steel rod and I've been using something similar so far.
Still waiting for my square edge jig to arrive so will update then
The motor of my Tormek T7 has 1400 rpm and the shaft diameter is 10.8 mm = 27/64".
When you will use a shaft with 6 mm diameter you have to set the revolutions of your drill machine to some 2500 rpm. Then the grindstone will have some 90 rpm. ;)
Jan
I've received the SE-77 jig and it seems pretty well built. I am surprised that it left by edge actually square :)
Overall I think the tormek is a decent piece of kit for refining primary bevels but wouldn't use it to grind badly misshapened tools. The dry grinder is much faster at this but the tormek is better when you near the edge of the blade as there is no threat of over heating and it gives a much finer grind. My dry grinding wheel tends to make the edge of the blade chip and it takes several sharpening sessions to achieve full sharpness because of this.
I'd quite like to add a leather honing wheel but not sure how I could add one.
I'll post a video over the weekend for those who are interested to see how this old tool works.