wanted to post this here... I have T7 and have been using it for maybe 5 years now.
I was curious so I tried using my DMT 8" Dia-Sharp Diamond plates to grade the stone. it works a lot better and you can get a really nice finish without strop.
album of a chisel I did
http://imgur.com/a/gpq5O
if I was Tormek... I would start circulating this information because the grading stone is substandard once you grade your stone with the diamond plates.
hope somebody finds this useful.
Excellent post, Andy. I for one am very interested. What grit(s) of diamond plates are you using? Thanks for posting the photos, and keep posting!
Ken
Course,fine, extra fine
I think the grits are 300,600,1200
edit:
I went back and got the exact grits off the DMT stones.
120 mesh, 120 micron - extra extra course
600 mesh, 25 micron - fine
8000 mesh, 3 micron - extra extra fine
I really do not think Tormek would want this spread anywhere...........unless they made the diamond stones.
I'd like you to update this at a later date. I am wondering if you will find you can't get it back to course as easily, or you find out you use/wear more of the stone, due to the hardness of the diamonds.
Thanks
Jeff, I really do not think Sweden (Tormek) has a problem with this. Whether using diamond plates for stone grading or CBN or Norton 3X wheels for grinding, the machine used is a Tormek. Also, for everyone like Andy, who is both clever enough and willing to spend enough to adapt diamond plates, there are thousands of satisfied Tormek users happily using the stand issue stone grader. I believe the two worlds can coexist.
SADW, we really need to get the mindset that the grinding wheel is consumable, like brake shoes. Even the stone grader does not return the grinding wheel to the coarseness of a freshly trued wheel.
I believe the"new" EZYlock shaft says a lot about Tormek's forward looking innovation. The Tormek was conceived as a one stone machine in an era when most knives and woodworking tools were made of high carbon steel. The stone grader allowed the one wheel to function as both coarse and fine. Given the luxurious large diameter and width of the Tormek grinding wheel, this dual function was and continues to be quite a saving for the user. The leather honing wheel was added very early on.
About five years ago the SB-250 blackwheel and Japanese wheels were introduced. The EZYlock shaft replaced the standard shaft to allow rapid toolless wheel changes. In my opinion,Ii believe we will continue to see many innovations from Tormek. The availibility of low cost man made abrasives and industrial diamonds is revolutionizing sharpening. Fortunately, the Tormek is a versatile machine.
Several years ago, Ionut was using a diamond file to true his grinding wheel. He thought it less aggressive the TT-100 truing tool.
In the handbook, author and inventor, Torgny Jansson, thanked the Tormek users for many suggestions over the years. With Andy's use of diamond plates, we are witnessing one of those innovative ideas forming. Keep up the good work, Andy.
Ken
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on November 01, 2015, 07:47:56 AM
I'd like you to update this at a later date. I am wondering if you will find you can't get it back to course as easily, or you find out you use/wear more of the stone, due to the hardness of the diamonds.
Thanks
I have been doing this for years now. in fact I find I get a much better cutting surface with the 120 mesh, 120 micron - extra extra course grade.
it clearly removes more material off the grinding wheel than the OEM grader stone.
for me, I see the grinding wheel as a consumable and it does not bother me to burn that grinding wheel down a bit faster. it cleans the wheel off and you get a nice fresh surface for cutting.
Quote from: Ken S on November 01, 2015, 09:18:57 AM
Jeff, I really do not think Sweden (Tormek) has a problem with this. Whether using diamond plates for stone grading or CBN or Norton 3X wheels for grinding, the machine used is a Tormek. Also, for everyone like Andy, who is both clever enough and willing to spend enough to adapt diamond plates, there are thousands of satisfied Tormek users happily using the stand issue stone grader. I believe the two worlds can coexist.
SADW, we really need to get the mindset that the grinding wheel is consumable, like brake shoes. Even the stone grader does not return the grinding wheel to the coarseness of a freshly trued wheel.
I believe the"new" EZYlock shaft says a lot about Tormek's forward looking innovation. The Tormek was conceived as a one stone machine in an era when most knives and woodworking tools were made of high carbon steel. The stone grader allowed the one wheel to function as both coarse and fine. Given the luxurious large diameter and width of the Tormek grinding wheel, this dual function was and continues to be quite a saving for the user. The leather honing wheel was added very early on.
About five years ago the SB-250 blackwheel and Japanese wheels were introduced. The EZYlock shaft replaced the standard shaft to allow rapid toolless wheel changes. In my opinion,Ii believe we will continue to see many innovations from Tormek. The availibility of low cost man made abrasives and industrial diamonds is revolutionizing sharpening. Fortunately, the Tormek is a versatile machine.
Several years ago, Ionut was using a diamond file to true his grinding wheel. He thought it less aggressive the TT-100 truing tool.
In the handbook, author and inventor, Torgny Jansson, thanked the Tormek users for many suggestions over the years. With Andy's use of diamond plates, we are witnessing one of those innovative ideas forming. Keep up the good work, Andy.
Ken
Thanks Ken yes I was just hoping others might benefit from my discovery. I love my T7 it has saved me so much time but I'm always looking to push things and get a better edge. I will continue to try things with my T7. it's really a great machine.
Quote from: sleepydad on November 01, 2015, 04:15:55 PM
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on November 01, 2015, 07:47:56 AM
I'd like you to update this at a later date. I am wondering if you will find you can't get it back to course as easily, or you find out you use/wear more of the stone, due to the hardness of the diamonds.
Thanks
I have been doing this for years now. in fact I find I get a much better cutting surface with the 120 mesh, 120 micron - extra extra course grade.
it clearly removes more material off the grinding wheel than the OEM grader stone.
for me, I see the grinding wheel as a consumable and it does not bother me to burn that grinding wheel down a bit faster. it cleans the wheel off and you get a nice fresh surface for cutting.
That provides a bit more information. I understand the grinding wheel is a consumable and do consider it as such, however the amount of wear is something that without data, I couldn't get an informed decision on.
For example, if one were to use the TT50 and take off more then they needed, because it was unscrewed and gouged deeper, rather then in its proper spot. (why waste wheel? being the whole point)
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on November 01, 2015, 04:58:46 PM
I understand the grinding wheel is a consumable and do consider it as such, however the amount of wear is something that without data, I couldn't get an informed decision on.
For example, if one were to use the TT50 and take off more then they needed, because it was unscrewed and gouged deeper, rather then in its proper spot. (why waste wheel? being the whole point)
I agree, but it's nice to have it available as an option. Spending too much time and applying too much pressure will diminish grindstone life. It takes practice to get a feel for when more than enough is too much.
I do not happen to have a diamond stone at present, (That may change, as Andy's idea is fascinating.) I would approach using a diamond stone the way I approach using the TT-100 truing tool. I take very light cuts. Often these cuts are less than a full number on the microadjust. The first cuts only make contact with the grinding wheel at the highest spot. Gradually, over several light cuts I reach the point where the entire wheel in being dressed. Be observant; you will recognize this point. Stop after the first full contact light cut. The job is complete with minimum wheel wear. There should be no wheel waste with either method.
Ken
Is something like this what you have in mind?
http://www.amazon.com/DMT-D8C-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Diamond/dp/B0001WP1L0/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1446434454&sr=8-10&keywords=diamond+stone
Ken, I don't see this as a truing tool. It wouldn't be aggressive enough, and you wouldn't have the control you'd need without a jig.
I do see it as something that could be used to dress the grindstone. Something that might work better than the coarse side of the stone grader when the grindstone gets clogged. So it wouldn't be a replacement for the stone grader, either, as you'd still need that for fine grading. Perhaps a fine grade diamond stone could do the fine grading.
the process I use for a typical straight edge. this is just an example of a wide chisel used for general use in soft woods.
1 set grade with coarse diamond plate, set angle to say 25 deg.
grind primary until done
2 set grade with fine diamond plate, move angle up by maybe 1-2 deg
grind a bit until I can see secondary bevel
3 set grade to extra fine, move angle up again by maybe 1-2 deg
grind a bit until I can see shiny strip
start to finish it takes me no more than maybe 5 mins to sharpen a typical chisel.
I think it's key to pop the angle at least 1 deg each time so your just creating a secondary bevel once you have your primary. you should be able to hear an audible difference between the different grades you apply to your stone with the plates.
you can get a very nice finish off the last plate. 8000 mesh, 3 micron - extra extra fine
Andy,
I believe you have opened the door to a fascinating new technique. I can see some diamond stone in my shop in the very near future.
On a practical level, how do you change the universal support to add the extra degree for the bevel? Do you measure or go be the amount of turning of the micro adjust?
Ken
sleepydad,
Wouldn't grading a stone put a lot of wear on the diamond plate?
I've always thought it's the shortest way to ending life of your diamond plate.
Shapton produces a lapping plate for stones by fusing diamonds in the glass,
and DMT produces Dia-Flat Lapping Plate by special technology for flattening water stones,
but regular diamond plates are not designed to withstand the extreme conditions incurred when flattening other abrasives.
A quote from the DMT website:
"Some DMT Diamond Sharpeners could be used (and have been used) for flattening, however, they were designed for sharpening, not flattening, therefore, DMT assumes no liability for sharpening stones worn out due to this method of use."
Personally, once I tried flattening an Arkansas benchstone with an EZE-LAP diamond plate, which stripped off a good deal of the diamond coating.
And Ken was through something similar: "I recently almost ruined a two hundred dollar diamond flat plate truing my grandfather's carborundum bench stone. That was really dumb." http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2337.msg11363#msg11363 (http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2337.msg11363#msg11363)
Your DMT plates, do they show much wear from grading the Tormek stone 'for years'?
Quote from: Ken S on November 02, 2015, 03:42:44 PM
Andy,
I believe you have opened the door to a fascinating new technique. I can see some diamond stone in my shop in the very near future.
On a practical level, how do you change the universal support to add the extra degree for the bevel? Do you measure or go be the amount of turning of the micro adjust?
Ken
I just give the micro adjust wheels a turn.. I'm just trying to skip having to hone the entire bevel at the higher grades. 1/8" of shiny bevel is enough for me.
Quote from: wootz on November 02, 2015, 04:28:28 PM
sleepydad,
Wouldn't grading a stone put a lot of wear on the diamond plate?
I've always thought it's the shortest way to ending life of your diamond plate.
Shapton produces a lapping plate for stones by fusing diamonds in the glass,
and DMT produces Dia-Flat Lapping Plate by special technology for flattening water stones,
but regular diamond plates are not designed to withstand the extreme conditions incurred when flattening other abrasives.
A quote from the DMT website:
"Some DMT Diamond Sharpeners could be used (and have been used) for flattening, however, they were designed for sharpening, not flattening, therefore, DMT assumes no liability for sharpening stones worn out due to this method of use."
Personally, once I tried flattening an Arkansas benchstone with an EZE-LAP diamond plate, which stripped off a good deal of the diamond coating.
And Ken was through something similar: "I recently almost ruined a two hundred dollar diamond flat plate truing my grandfather's carborundum bench stone. That was really dumb." http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2337.msg11363#msg11363 (http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2337.msg11363#msg11363)
Your DMT plates, do they show much wear from grading the Tormek stone 'for years'?
I was concerned about it at first but I don't even think about it anymore. I'm sure I will wear them out at some point but I have really beat on them and they continue to produce results so...
yes I know I'm outside the recommended usage.
I have only used the DMT plates to grade. so I can't answer for other diamond plates. I also have the shapton lapping plate and I don't think I would use it to grade on the tormek.
I know they now make smaller version of the plates and they are really very reasonable $ wise. the 6" plates are much cheaper as well.
http://www.amazon.com/DMT-D4F-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Diamond/dp/B002D4K90M/ref=sr_1_31?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1446488501&sr=1-31&refinements=p_89%3ADMT+%28Diamond+Machining+Technology%29
if I wear mine out I will purchase some others in smaller sizes.
after a couple of years my finest plate definitively does not produce results as well as it once did. still I'm amazed at the beating they have taken.
I do want to make it clear that I don't run a commercial shop so I don't have any idea if you could do what I'm doing on a daily basis and get a good service life out of the diamond plates. I sharpen quite a bit... maybe ever other weekend 2-3 chisels, a couple of plane blades, some scissors, some knifes.
"I just give the micro adjust wheels a turn.. I'm just trying to skip having to hone the entire bevel at the higher grades. 1/8" of shiny bevel is enough for me."
Good thought, Andy. I understand the conventional Tormek wisdom that using microlevels is not necessary due to the power of the Tormek. That's a point well taken, however, just because something is possible does not necessarily mean it is the best course in all circumstances. Your "micro bevel" approach seems logical here.
I was fooiish to use my diamond flattening plate with a carborundum stone. The plate still works; it just is worn. In my defense, neither the company nor the reviewers gave any warning. I suspect that using diamond stones with the Tormek wheel will shorten their useful lives. I don't see that as a big deal. Like the grinding wheel itself, the diamond stones are consumables. As you correctly note, in the smaller sizes they are not expensive.
Thank you for stating your usage amount. That helps keep things in perspective. I happen to have an SJ-250, the Japanese grinding wheel. I will be curious to see how the 8000 grit diamond stone dresses the SG-250 in comparison to the Japanese wheel. If it even comes close, it would be a very viable option at lower cost for most users.
Time to pick up my grandchildren at school. Great topic, Andy.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on November 02, 2015, 07:55:47 PM
I happen to have an SJ-250, the Japanese grinding wheel. I will be curious to see how the 8000 grit diamond stone dresses the SG-250 in comparison to the Japanese wheel.
Hi Ken, I happened to have Extra Fine DMT, which is 1200 mesh, ~ 2000 JIS, and tried it on the Japanese SJ-250.
Below picture is after 30 sec to 1 min of dressing with the DMT plate. Notice the chipped edge.
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/DMT.JPG)
As I wrote somewhere else, when I got SJ-250 I tried whetstones and ceramic benchstone on it for dressing, and finally found Nagura intended for #4000+ the best. Nagura leaves definitely better surface on SJ than the Tormek grading stone, with less waste.
The following photo is after 1 min of dressing with Nagura.
I bought a few from this mate on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-whetstone-KING-Nagura-sharpening-waterstone-sharpener-tool-knife-water-/391139052736?hash=item5b11b44cc0:m:mL7D0J2mJ70P7j1WX4Ctu4w (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-whetstone-KING-Nagura-sharpening-waterstone-sharpener-tool-knife-water-/391139052736?hash=item5b11b44cc0:m:mL7D0J2mJ70P7j1WX4Ctu4w)
(http://home.exetel.com.au/dropbox/nagura.JPG)
This does not, of course, deny usefulness of DMT for dressing a regular SG stone, as per Andy.
Generally speaking, looking for better implements is inspiring, and, ultimately, rewarding.
Wootz, you say "Notice the chipped edge".
Does that mean the DMT caused it, or you were using it to work it out, or it is the reference point for your wheel?
Clever, wootz! I will try it. I have something similar for my Norton waterstones.(They were used more pre-Tormek.) The ebay seller is certainly within my research budget.
Ken
Quote from: SharpenADullWitt on November 03, 2015, 07:24:08 AM
Wootz, you say "Notice the chipped edge".
Does that mean the DMT caused it, or you were using it to work it out, or it is the reference point for your wheel?
The DMT plate caused it. And when I was experimenting with a Spyderco ultra fine ceramic benchstone, it also resulted in a ragged edge, which together draw us to the conclusion that the gentle Japanese wheel does not like hard dressers.
The softer Tormek fine grader and Nagura don't cause this sort of damage.
Notice concave wear in the Nagura in the photo. :)
Search brings up a few past posts of people's experience with DMT plates for dressing, the most interesting is Ionut's:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1078.msg2720#msg2720 (http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1078.msg2720#msg2720)
Quote from Ionut:
" that I clamp in a second straight jig "
Is he referring to the SE-76 and SVH-60 style of jigs? Ionut hasn't logged in since the last of March to ask him.
Quote from: sleepydad on November 02, 2015, 07:15:59 PM
Quote from: Ken S on November 02, 2015, 03:42:44 PM
On a practical level, how do you change the universal support to add the extra degree for the bevel? Do you measure or go be the amount of turning of the micro adjust?
Ken
I just give the micro adjust wheels a turn.. I'm just trying to skip having to hone the entire bevel at the higher grades. 1/8" of shiny bevel is enough for me.
Sleepydad, you are correct! :)
One revolution of the micro-adjust wheel means elevation of the universal support by 1.5 mm (0.06"). This will increase the distance between the support and the stone, and cause that the chisel bevel angle will typically increase by 1 degree.
Jan
Good find, wootz!
I looked back through Ionut's fifteen pages of posts, and did not quite make it all the way through. What is frustrating for me is that Ionut emailed me some photos showing how he used the small diamond stones with the straight jig. Alas, the hard drive died in my former computer, and took the time machine back up along with it.
Good question, Elden. I do know that Ionut used the older SVH-60 jig. In fact, he helped me purchase one. This came up fro a discussion about sharpening a large mortising chisel, similar to the one that Jan inherited from his grandfather. It would fit in the older jig, but not in the new design. Ionut regularly used at least two Tormeks, so he probably had both jigs.
For those of you new enough to the forum not to remember Ionut, I consider him and Jeff Farris two of the most experienced Tormek users on the forum. Ionut lives in western Canada. Among other things, he demonstrated the Tormek for Big Bear Tools, the western Canada Tormek distributor. Whereas Jeff made his living selling Tormeks and has a well developed love of woodturning, Ionut is a software engineer with a driving passion for woodworking. Sharpening was a necessary party of his real passion, working with wood.
For those of us who are old enough to be able to learn from reading, time spent studying the many posts of both Jeff and Ionut on this forum will be well repaid in knowledge. Jeff is the most skilled traditional Tormek man in my knowledge. Ionut, making his living elsewhere, is more of a free spirit with the Tormek. He is very innovative.
The recently discussed issue of dirty and non functioning leather honing wheels was discussed by Ionut He was the first person I knew who used the Japanese grinding wheel (SJ) effectively. in fact, he dedicated a separate Tormek to it, something I have been hoping to do someday.
For those willing to ask and search, there is a treasure of information on this forum, both in the recent posts and the archives. I encourage everyone to learn.
Ken
ps While researching Jeff and Ionut's posts, if their fifteen and fourteen pages seems a lot to work through, be grateful that you are not researching my 134 pages! :P
Quote from: Ken S on November 03, 2015, 11:40:25 PM
For those of us who are old enough to be able to learn from reading...
;D ;D ;D
Ken, you can be so hilarious!
My interest in this topic is that I am also looking for a better alternative to the Tormek grader to create #1000 surface.
When used after the truing tool, it degrades the perfect squareness created by the TT-50, and because of that I haven't been able to produce a true and square #1000 stone. The resulting #1000 wheel is never as right as immediately after the truing tool.
It's exactly the same problem Ionut described in the link above - a quote:
"I don't like to use the grading stone, it is for grading and not dressing, mine already has no more flat surfaces left that I can use and I don't use to grade my stone anymore, it brings my stone out of square and I already have a 1000 stone."
Unlike Ionut, I have no idea where from to source the #1000 stone and have to grade it from the SG-250, and this causes lots of frustration.
Diamond lapping plates should work, but DMT doesn't offer the grit I need, and again I'd rather buy a dedicated #1000 wheel than diamond graders to make it of #220 SG-250.
Searched all around, and looks like these guys are the only source of Tormek compatible #800 wheels:
http://www.fine-tools.com/Tormek.html (http://www.fine-tools.com/Tormek.html)
'New delivery expected February 2016'
The Japanese manufacturer itself offers a wide variety of grits, but the minimum order is 10 ea.
Wootz,
I happen to have one of those King grinding wheels (one of Ionut's recommendations). I tried it very briefly (in fairness, too briefly), and wasn't particularly impressed.
I admit that, like you, I have never been a great fan of the stone grader. How much of this is the grader itself and how much is me is not yet determined. I am leaving the jury out (sorry, an English idiom for I am undecided)
I have too many Tormek projects going on. One project is using a second leather honing wheel with valve grinding compound. The VGC does not leave as smooth a polish as the Tormek homing compound. It does cut more agressively. My initial (and not definitive) tests indicate VGC might be a good substitute for the stone grader, at least with some tools. It certainly is faster and seems to leave a finish at least as good as the stone grader. For good work I would follow up with the other leather honing wheel with the Tormek homing compound or the SJ wheel. The leather honing wheel changes very quickly on the T7. It changes just as quickly on the T4 if the threaded lock wheel from the T7 is substituted for the nut. I have done this; it works well.
I would prefer a Tormek single grit 1000 grit wheel. My King wheel does not slide on and off as well as a Tormek wheel. I do not know if this is a quality issue or if the wheel was originally designed for something else like a horizontal wet grinder.
Andy's diamond stone idea sounds promising; I intend to try it.
We are the unusual consumers. The large market, which Tormek must pay attention to in order to remain in business, wants simplicity. One grinding wheel; one "combination" table saw blade;etc. Fortunately for us, the Tormek is versatile enough to satisfy both markets. For the record, I have seven grinding wheels for my Tormeks. My "go to" grinding wheel is the Tormek SG general purpose wheel.
Keep pushing against the knowledge frontier. :)
Ken
Hi ,
When there is discussions about sharpening and edges we almost never talk about the fact of pressure.
Next time you true the stone, take a chisel or a plane blade and try different pressure on the tool. Sharpen half of the tools edge with normal pressure and less pressure on the second half.
There is a huge difference already on a stone that is about 220 grid.
Use the fine side of the stonegrader about 40 seconds on the stone and try the same thing when the stone is about 1000 grid. Still a difference.
I think I do apply more pressure while sharpening than the common Tormek user but always use very little pressure the last 5-10 seconds before I hone the tool.
That gives me a perfect edge every time.
Our stonegrader is what we find most efficient to use on our stones. We know that a diamondplate can flatten the grids/stone perfectly at the same height and give a great result. However, after a while grids will break and make scratches on the tools surface.
So we don't find it good enough and therefore offer the Japanese stone.
After use it takes me about 1 minute to clean the stone with our SP-650 so I cant see any reason to buy other stones to use.
With that said, we all do things a bit different and even when using the stonegrader we use different pressure which will give us a different view of the stonegrader.
I see the stonegrader as the stones best friend and could not use a Tormek without having it close to the machine.
Sincerely,
Stig
My new photographic "darkroom" (Macbook Pro laptop) has Apple's "latest and greatest" touch sensitive trackpad. It is capable of doing more tricks than I know by using varying finger pressure. It's easy to forget that the Tormek can work the same way. Stig makes an excellent point.
Periodically I reread the handbook and watch the videos on the tormek.com site. This repetition has never failed to provide more than I knew before. It is easy to forget things like how many different ways the tool rest (SVD-110) can be used or how versatile the TTS-100 can be (it can be used for more than turning tools).It is easy to get into a rut. I find I need to refresh my study of the basics from time to time. In our quest to make the Tormek more versatile for our needs, we should not forget the versatility of a solid basic technique.
I plan to spend a fair amount of time honing my basic Tormek skills and knowledge this month. I will include substantial time working with the stone grader. I will post my progress.
Ken