grading with diamond plates works way better

[sleepydad]

Andy,

I believe you have opened the door to a fascinating new technique. I can see some diamond stone in my shop in the very near future.

On a practical level, how do you change the universal support to add the extra degree for the bevel? Do you measure or go be the amount of turning of the micro adjust?

Ken

I just give the micro adjust wheels a turn.. I'm just trying to skip having to hone the entire bevel at the higher grades.  1/8" of shiny bevel is enough for me.

[sleepydad]

sleepydad,
Wouldn't grading a stone put a lot of wear on the diamond plate?
I've always thought it's the shortest way to ending life of your diamond plate.

Shapton produces a lapping plate for stones by fusing diamonds in the glass,
and DMT produces Dia-Flat Lapping Plate by special technology for flattening water stones,
but regular diamond plates are not designed to withstand the extreme conditions incurred when flattening other abrasives.

A quote from the DMT website:
"Some DMT Diamond Sharpeners could be used (and have been used) for flattening, however, they were designed for sharpening, not flattening, therefore, DMT assumes no liability for sharpening stones worn out due to this method of use."

Personally, once I tried flattening an Arkansas benchstone with an EZE-LAP diamond plate, which stripped off a good deal of the diamond coating.

And Ken was through something similar: "I recently almost ruined a two hundred dollar  diamond flat plate truing my grandfather's carborundum bench stone. That was really dumb." http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2337.msg11363#msg11363

Your DMT plates, do they show much wear from grading the Tormek stone 'for years'?

I was concerned about it at first but I don't even think about it anymore.  I'm sure I will wear them out at some point but I have really beat on them and they continue to produce results so...

yes I know I'm outside the recommended usage.

I have only used the DMT plates to grade.  so I can't answer for other diamond plates.  I also have the shapton lapping plate and I don't think I would use it to grade on the tormek.

I know they now make smaller version of the plates and they are really very reasonable $ wise.  the 6" plates are much cheaper as well.

http://www.amazon.com/DMT-D4F-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Diamond/dp/B002D4K90M/ref=sr_1_31?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1446488501&sr=1-31&refinements=p_89%3ADMT+%28Diamond+Machining+Technology%29

if I wear mine out I will purchase some others in smaller sizes.

after a couple of years my finest plate definitively does not produce results as well as it once did.  still I'm amazed at the beating they have taken.

I do want to make it clear that I don't run a commercial shop so I don't have any idea if you could do what I'm doing on a daily basis and get a good service life out of the diamond plates.  I sharpen quite a bit... maybe ever other weekend 2-3 chisels, a couple of plane blades, some scissors, some knifes.

[Ken S]

"I just give the micro adjust wheels a turn.. I'm just trying to skip having to hone the entire bevel at the higher grades.  1/8" of shiny bevel is enough for me."

Good thought, Andy. I understand the conventional Tormek wisdom that using microlevels is not necessary due to the power of the Tormek. That's a point well taken, however, just because something is possible does not necessarily mean it is the best course in all circumstances. Your "micro bevel" approach seems logical here.

I was fooiish to use my diamond flattening plate with a carborundum stone. The plate still works; it just is worn. In my defense, neither the company nor the reviewers gave any warning. I suspect that using diamond stones with the Tormek wheel will shorten their useful lives. I don't see that as a big deal. Like the grinding wheel itself, the diamond stones are consumables. As you correctly note, in the smaller sizes they are not expensive.

Thank you for stating your usage amount. That helps keep things in perspective. I happen to have an SJ-250, the Japanese grinding wheel. I will be curious to see how the 8000 grit diamond stone dresses the SG-250 in comparison to the Japanese wheel. If it even comes close, it would be a very viable option at lower cost for most users.

Time to pick up my grandchildren at school. Great topic, Andy.

Ken

[wootz]

I happen to have an SJ-250, the Japanese grinding wheel. I will be curious to see how the 8000 grit diamond stone dresses the SG-250 in comparison to the Japanese wheel.

Hi Ken, I happened to have Extra Fine DMT, which is 1200 mesh, ~ 2000 JIS, and tried it on the Japanese SJ-250.
Below picture is after 30 sec to 1 min of dressing with the DMT plate. Notice the chipped edge.



As I wrote somewhere else, when I got SJ-250 I tried whetstones and ceramic benchstone on it for dressing, and finally found Nagura intended for #4000+ the best. Nagura leaves definitely better surface on SJ than the Tormek grading stone, with less waste.
The following photo is after  1 min of dressing with Nagura.

I bought a few from this mate on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-whetstone-KING-Nagura-sharpening-waterstone-sharpener-tool-knife-water-/391139052736?hash=item5b11b44cc0:m:mL7D0J2mJ70P7j1WX4Ctu4w



This does not, of course, deny usefulness of DMT for dressing a regular SG stone, as per Andy.
Generally speaking, looking for better implements is inspiring, and, ultimately, rewarding.

[SharpenADullWitt]

Wootz, you say "Notice the chipped edge".
Does that mean the DMT caused it, or you were using it to work it out, or it is the reference point for your wheel?

[Ken S]

Clever, wootz! I will try it. I have something similar for my Norton waterstones.(They were used more pre-Tormek.) The ebay seller is certainly within my research budget.

Ken

[wootz]

Wootz, you say "Notice the chipped edge".
Does that mean the DMT caused it, or you were using it to work it out, or it is the reference point for your wheel?

The DMT plate caused it. And when I was experimenting with a Spyderco ultra fine ceramic benchstone, it also resulted in a ragged edge, which together draw us to the conclusion that the gentle Japanese wheel does not like hard dressers.
The softer Tormek fine grader and Nagura don't cause this sort of damage.
Notice concave wear in the Nagura in the photo.

[wootz]

Search brings up a few past posts of people's experience with DMT plates for dressing, the most interesting is Ionut's:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1078.msg2720#msg2720

[Elden]

Quote from Ionut:

" that I clamp in a second straight jig "

Is he referring to the SE-76 and SVH-60 style of jigs? Ionut hasn't logged in since the last of March to ask him.

[Jan]

On a practical level, how do you change the universal support to add the extra degree for the bevel? Do you measure or go be the amount of turning of the micro adjust?

Ken

I just give the micro adjust wheels a turn.. I'm just trying to skip having to hone the entire bevel at the higher grades.  1/8" of shiny bevel is enough for me.

Sleepydad, you are correct! 

One revolution of the micro-adjust wheel means elevation of the universal support by 1.5 mm (0.06"). This will increase the distance between the support and the stone, and cause that the chisel bevel angle will typically increase by 1 degree.

Jan

[Ken S]

Good find, wootz!

I looked back through Ionut's fifteen pages of posts, and did not quite make it all the way through. What is frustrating for me is that Ionut emailed me some photos showing how he used the small diamond stones with the straight jig. Alas, the hard drive died in my former computer, and took the time machine back up along with it.

Good question, Elden. I do know that Ionut used the older SVH-60 jig. In fact, he helped me purchase one. This came up fro a discussion about sharpening a large mortising chisel, similar to the one that Jan inherited from his grandfather. It would fit in the older jig, but not in the new design. Ionut regularly used at least two Tormeks, so he probably had both jigs.

For those of you new enough to the forum not to remember Ionut, I consider him and Jeff Farris two of the most experienced Tormek users on the forum. Ionut lives in western Canada. Among other things, he demonstrated the Tormek for Big Bear Tools, the western Canada Tormek distributor. Whereas Jeff made his living selling Tormeks and has a well developed love of woodturning, Ionut is a software engineer with a driving passion for woodworking. Sharpening was a necessary party of his real passion, working with wood.

For those of us who are old enough to be able to learn from reading, time spent studying the many posts of both Jeff and Ionut on this forum will be well repaid in knowledge. Jeff is the most skilled traditional Tormek man in my knowledge. Ionut, making his living elsewhere, is more of a free spirit with the Tormek. He is very innovative.

The recently discussed issue of dirty and non functioning leather honing wheels was discussed by Ionut He was the first person I knew who used the Japanese grinding wheel (SJ) effectively. in fact, he dedicated a separate Tormek to it, something I have been hoping to do someday.

For those willing to ask and search, there is a treasure of information on this forum, both in the recent posts and the archives. I encourage everyone to learn.

Ken

ps While researching Jeff and Ionut's posts, if their fifteen and fourteen pages seems a lot to work through, be grateful that you are not researching my 134 pages!

[wootz]

For those of us who are old enough to be able to learn from reading...

Ken, you can be so hilarious!

[wootz]

My interest in this topic is that I am also looking for a better alternative to the Tormek grader to create #1000 surface.
When used after the truing tool, it degrades the perfect squareness created by the TT-50, and because of that I haven't been able to produce a true and square #1000 stone. The resulting #1000 wheel is never as right as immediately after the truing tool.

It's exactly the same problem Ionut described in the link above - a quote:
"I don't like to use the grading stone, it is for grading and not dressing, mine already has no more flat surfaces left that I can use and I don't use to grade my stone anymore, it brings my stone out of square and I already have a 1000 stone."

Unlike Ionut, I have no idea where from to source the #1000 stone and have to grade it from the SG-250, and this causes lots of frustration.

Diamond lapping plates should work, but DMT doesn't offer the grit I need, and again I'd rather buy a dedicated #1000 wheel than diamond graders to make it of #220 SG-250.

[wootz]

Searched all around, and looks like these guys are the only source of Tormek compatible #800 wheels:
http://www.fine-tools.com/Tormek.html
'New delivery expected February 2016'

The Japanese manufacturer itself offers a wide variety of grits, but the minimum order is 10 ea.

[Ken S]

Wootz,

I happen to have one of those King grinding wheels (one of Ionut's recommendations). I tried it very briefly (in fairness, too briefly), and wasn't particularly impressed.

I admit that, like you, I have never been a great fan of the stone grader. How much of this is the grader itself and how much is me is not yet determined. I am leaving the jury out (sorry, an English idiom for I am undecided)

I have too many Tormek projects going on. One project is using a second leather honing wheel with valve grinding compound. The VGC does not leave as smooth a polish as the Tormek homing compound. It does cut more agressively. My initial (and not definitive) tests indicate VGC might be a good substitute for the stone grader, at least with some tools. It certainly is faster and seems to leave a finish at least as good as the stone grader. For good work I would follow up with the other leather honing wheel with the Tormek homing compound or the SJ wheel. The leather honing wheel changes very quickly on the T7. It changes just as quickly on the T4 if the threaded lock wheel from the T7 is substituted for the nut. I have done this; it works well.

I would prefer a Tormek single grit 1000 grit wheel. My King wheel does not slide on and off as well as a Tormek wheel. I do not know if this is a quality issue or if the wheel was originally designed for something else like a horizontal wet grinder.

Andy's diamond stone idea sounds promising; I intend to try it.

We are the unusual consumers. The large market, which Tormek must pay attention to in order to remain in business, wants simplicity. One grinding wheel; one "combination" table saw blade;etc. Fortunately for us, the Tormek is versatile enough to satisfy both markets. For the record, I have seven grinding wheels for my Tormeks. My "go to" grinding wheel is the Tormek SG general purpose wheel.

Keep pushing against the knowledge frontier.

Ken