Did a quick search on English-pattern Mortise Chisels and the last thread I found on was around 2010 and referenced jigs that were discontinued even then...
So, is there a straight-forward method of honing an English-pattern mortise (EPM) chisel on the Tormek T-7?
Specifically, I'm talking about the set made by Ray Iles... They are D2 and a bit of a bear to hone on flat stones... Being that they are D2... I've got the T-7 and just about every attachment I could want... The EPM is about the only thing I don't hone on it...
Off the top of my head, the factory primary bevel is 20d, secondary 30d and tertiary at 35d. The secondary and tertiary are quite small – about 1/8" and 1/16" respectively... After several honings, many forgo the secondary bevel and jump from 20d to 35d with the final bevel between 1/8" and 1/16"... So far, I've kept to factory practice....
The primary bevel is quite long – maybe 1" and suspect that could be a problem (or maybe the problem) or jig holding. The Iles chisels are slightly tapered in cross section, while more traditional examples are distinctly trapezoidal.
Here is a link: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/mortChisel/mortChis1.asp
Any and all help appreciated...
The SVS-32 might work.
Welcome, 4 square.
I remember the posts well. Ionut posted the original question. I was one of those who posted replies. Ionut hd done Tormek demonstrations in western Canada. He is very innovative. He had a large mortise chisel which should not fit in the SE-76 Square Edge jig. While the SE-76 is a noticeable improvement over it predecessor jig, the SVH-60, that improvement came at a cost. The cost was having slightly smaller thickness capability.
The latest edition of the handbook does not include instructions on the SVH-60. My hardbound copy of Edition 9.5 (2007) does include a section on the SVH-60. If you decide to go the SVH route, and cannot obtain the instructions from support.tormek.se , let me know and I will scan them for you.
I think it would be worthwhile trying to sharpen your mortise chisel using just the universal support bar. The later editions of the handbook make no reference to mortising chisels. I would be curious to know if earlier editions mention them.
If you are interested in obtaining the older jig, contact the importer for your country. Ionut helped me locate one through Big Bear Tools, the importer for western Canada. This was several years ago. You might find a "new old stock" jig, as I did, although more time has passed. Surprisingly, not many are for sale on the online auction sites. Perhaps the old timers are content, even though the SE-76 is a noticeable improvement.
Do keep us posted.
I like my SVH-60. So far referencing off the face has not proven to be a problem. The edge reference seems to perform fairly well. At this point, it does not sound like the SVH-60 requires much more attention than the SE-76 to me. It may be I am misinterpreting what I have read. I do not have a SE-76.
My first 1/4" bench chisel came out great. Might be it was beginner's chance. All the good information that came as a result from other's problems definitely helped!
Quote from: 4-Square on June 04, 2015, 09:33:54 PM
Did a quick search on English-pattern Mortise Chisels and the last thread I found on was around 2010 and referenced jigs that were discontinued even then...
So, is there a straight-forward method of honing an English-pattern mortise (EPM) chisel on the Tormek T-7?
Welcome to the forum, 4 square.
At the end of the last year I opened thread entitled "How to sharpen 3/4" mortise chisel." I think the rich discussion may be interesting for you.
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2295.msg11064#msg11064 (http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2295.msg11064#msg11064)
My chisel was not English-pattern Mortise Chisels, but an antique heavy duty mortise chisel with a bevel length 1 5/8" (40 mm). I have decided to keep the bevel of my old heavy duty mortise chisel flat. That was why I have mounted the Tormek Universal support on my belt sander.
(http://img13.rajce.idnes.cz/d1302/10/10793/10793784_4f5d73aa79e38dff462204b63aedb3f2/images/IMG_3719_72.jpg?ver=0)
Because my chisel was too big for the Square edge jig (SE 76), I removed the special Tormek lower clamp and replaced it temporarily with two small steel plates bolt together by four screws.
Everything worked fine. The only difficulty I had to overcome were the squarness of the bevel, because the chisel was twisted.
Jan
Great improvisation...the jig wouldn't work nearly so well without the iron in the background :-)
I was expecting your objection against background uniformity, Rob. The old iron is used to cool the belt sander. :)
Jan
Nice setup, Jan.
Thank you, Elden.
To be fair it is necessary to admit, that the work with the belt sander is not as comfortable and precise as with Tormek sharpening system.
As I already mentioned in the above quoted thread, the belt sander is noisy and dusty. When the belt is worn out and hot it is often bulged in the middle of its width. The bulge causes that the bevel is not exactly flat. That is why I prefer the grinding direction when the belt is running away from the edge, because the belt is pressed down before it reaches the bevel edge.
Jan
Thanks for the responses...
While the bench-mounted belt sander is tempting... :)
I've got some stationary sanders in the shop – disk, edge and belt... If I fashion a purpose-made jig that runs in the miter slot, I could give that a go for reestablishing the primary bevel... D2 is a tough steel... So the belt sander idea is sparking some future jig-activity... Thanks.
Turns-out my dad's got the 60 – which he doesn't use since getting the 76... The chisels in question won't fit the stock 60... However, if I hot-rod the 60 and replace the existing threaded posts with something about ½ longer, it could work... I'm not much of a machinist, but will give it a whirl. I figure a die-grinder, drill press and McMaster-Carr will get it done...
Suspect it won't be quite as pretty as the factory jig, but the goal is sharpening...
Thanks again.
4-Square,
A couple of related thoughts:
You could sharpen the mortise chisel using just the universal support. I suspect that was the original Tormek method. With the chisel Jan was sharpening, it might have worked better than a jig. It was his grandfather's chisel, and probably hand forged. Jan noted it was not square and parallel, typical of tools of the time.
With a modern tool from Ray Iles, I would expect it to be ground straight. In that case, you might try the SVD-110 Tool Rest or the SVX-150 Scissors Jig. I would start with the scissors jig. It has a lower center of gravity, as noted by Herman for his knife jig. If you made up a small drafting square to hold the chisel straight, it should slide easily across the surface. Turning the jig around will get it quite close to the wheel for good control. You might possibly need a simple hex head 600 thread bolt for better clearance from the wheel.
Whatever you do, please keep us posted.
Ken
Yea, Ray Ile's kit is certainly well made and quite square -- so I'm going to use a positive-holding jig to keep it that way -- one thing about hand-mortising --- you want a square chisel or all sorts of bad things can happen...
Going to go two routes simultaneously...
Looking at the 60, I notice the threaded posts are rusting... I'm going to cut them off, drill/tap the jig's base and use 18-8 threaded rod for the replacement posts -- maybe 1/2 to 3/4 longer... I may/may-not use a nut to hold them – I may just use loctite... I notice that the 76 went that route, go figure... So that should get me a jig that can hold the chisels in question... Maybe it'll look as good as the factory jig after all – who knows...
The second project will be a miter-slot jig for my stationary belt sander to re-establish the 20d primary bevel. I figure it would take forever to grind that much D2 on a Tormek. I may actually make it for the disk sander – haven't decided...
I'll post a photo or two when done...
Quote from: 4-Square on June 07, 2015, 03:20:21 PM
Yea, Ray Ile's kit is certainly well made and quite square -- so I'm going to use a positive-holding jig to keep it that way -- one thing about hand-mortising --- you want a square chisel or all sorts of bad things can happen...
You will also need to make sure that the grindstone is properly trued. And even then you won't be assured of a square end. It takes practice, skill, and constant checking to make sure you're grinding a square end.
I was happy to see this thread show up here. I recently picked up two of these English bolstered mortising chisels off the bay and was looking for a way to change the grind angle. My goal was to go to the 20 degree primary bevel and then to the 35 degree working bevel as used in the Ray Iles chisels. The current square edge jig could not handle the thick stock but from this thread I saw that the original jig supplied in the old 2000 Tormek might work. Yup, I can just barely fit the chisels in the old jig. I haven't re-ground yet though. I just sold my Jet table saw and am reorganizing my new found shop space. I had been advised on other forums that a hollow grind is not best for these chisels but I'm going to do this anyway. I'll flatten out the hollow manually if I need to.
Dakotapix, I think the hullabaloo about the hollow grind is overblown, at least with tormek size wheels. Yes, it is obvious with six inch wheels, but it is less so with eight or ten inch wheels.I think this prejudice goes back to the days when smaller grinders were the norm. If anyone is concerned about the slight hollow being less strong than a flat ground, adding three degrees to the bevel should solve the problem. For this thick a chisel, I would add five degrees.
Ken
I started grinding my 3/8" English mortise chisel yesterday and it became very apparent I will need to remove a lot of steel to achieve the 20 degree primary bevel. I'm maybe half way there but had to quit because of other things going on. I'll resume at some point today. What became apparent because of the thick stock on this chisel is the need to NOT over tighten the left-hand knob. Doing so would definitely cause a definite uneven grind. Seems to be going well so far. Just tedious work.
Jeff Farris did a PDF on how to use the older square edge jig. He discussed tightening. I was unable to locate it in a search today. Your observation about overtightening the left screw is valuable. A few quick passes with the dry grinder would speed up the reshaping. Just stay in the area of the bevel with lots of metal to absorb the heat and work carefully.
I checked up on the twenty degree bevel angle. The one dealer website gave a good description of the chisel and the reason for the twenty degree bevel. It sounds logical, although I was surprised that it was not beefier. After all that work, I hope you like your newly sharpened mortise chisel. :)
The good news is that subsequent resharpenings should go much more quickly.
Ken
Jeff's pdf:
http://www.sharptoolsusa.com/squareedgeweb.pdf
Thanks, Eldon, that's it!
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 11, 2015, 01:34:30 PM
If anyone is concerned about the slight hollow being less strong than a flat ground,
I thought this was well-understood. If Dakotapix proceeds to grind at what he's measured to be a 20 degree angle using the Angle Master he will leave more steel on the heel of the bevel than if he had ground it flat at 20 degrees. Another way of saying this is that when he's finished grinding the 20 degree bevel with the Tormek and wants to remove the hollow with a bench stone to produce a flat 20 degree bevel, he'll be removing steel from the heel of the bevel.
I finished the 3/8" mortise chisel today. It was going very slow so I switched over to 25 degree base bevel and then finished the working edge at 35 degrees. I'll try to chop a mortise tomorrow. I appreciate your tips though. I read through Jeff's PDF on using the square edge jig and that was pretty much how I set up this chisel. Not always though. I had my share of trouble getting square sharpenings until I began to understand the tightening sequence on both the new and old jigs.
Next is a 3/16" mortise chisel (aka pig sticker).
Changing the primary bevel on an English pattern mortise with a Tormek is not really the right tool for the job... It can be done, but that's a lot of steel... An awful lot of steel... Ad if it's Ray Iles, then it's an awful lot of D2...
The 20d primary is a design feature inherent in the proper use of the tool – Chris Schwarz has several articles on the two or three most accepted workflows – and they all benefit from the shallow primary. I suspect 25d will work, just not as well...
When I've got my jig done, I'll post a photo.
Jeff Farris made an interesting comment in the gouge section of his turning video which might be useful here. When doing a major reshaping, Jeff suggest doing it in stages. Reshaping the primary bevel on your mortising chisels might seem less arduous if you approached it in stages. Five or ten minutes now and again would not be such a chore, and you would get a feel for how your chisels work at different bevel angles.
Ken
Another tip is to keep a tool in need of this kind of shaping in reserve. If you find yourself sharpening something like a kitchen knife when the grindstone needs truing, you'll need a chore like this to get the grindstone back in a smooth-enough condition to be able to continue working on the kitchen knife.
If you try to sharpen a kitchen knife on a freshly-trued grindstone you'll not be able to get a refined edge as the grindstone's surface will be too rough.
==>When doing a major reshaping, Jeff suggest doing it in stages. Reshaping the primary bevel on your mortising chisels might seem less arduous if you approached it in stages. Five or ten minutes now and again would not be such a chore, and you would get a feel for how your chisels work at different bevel angles.
An interesting idea... But the primary on single-bevel bench tools and the double-bevel carving kit is apples to oranges. Something can be gleaned by varying bevel angles on carving tools, but many bench tools are designed around a narrow window of acceptable primary bevel angles... Incremental grinding is simply not a viable option.
I know this is a Tormek forum ---- but.... For heavy metal removal, it's not the right tool for the job... It can be done, but that doesn't mean its the best tool for the job... You're asking to remove too much steel in a user-acceptable time window... There's nothing wrong with establishing the primary on some other media, then refining and/or finishing with the Tormek -- it's what I do now... In the spirit of full disclosure, the Tormek plays an intermediate-role for my western-style chisels (O1, A2, PMV-11) and plane irons (A2). I prefer a hollow-grind to facilitate a hand-finish on magnesium-matrix waterstones (Chosera 10K). My Japanese chisels are never hollow ground... The rest of my bench and carving kit is sharpened and finished on the Tormek...
To establish the primary on my English-pattern mortisers, I'm going to use a stationary sander... Nothing is wrong using scary-sharp, bench grinder, bench stones, belt-sander in vise (does that have a name?) and/or some other time-acceptable method for heavy steel removal... Spending thirty+ minutes establishing a primary on a big mortiser is counterproductive... Again, it can be done -- but life's too short...
You are quite correct, 4-Square. Confronted with a big mortising chisel with major grinding, if no one was looking, I would sneak over to my belt grinder or dry grinder. My dry grinder has a Norton 3X 46 grit wheel. I use the dry grinder for heavy work. I like the 46 grit wheel.
I am curious about the primary bevel on your chisels when you acquired them. I believe the Ray Iles mortising chisels leave the factory at twenty degrees. Someone put some work in for you to redo.
Keep us posted.
Ken
I've maintained the factory angles... All primaries are at 20d, secondaries around 33d and tertiaries at 35d give or take -- maybe the 1/8" is a bit different, but I'd have to check... The issue is after four or five sharpeningings, the secondaries start to creep and need to reestablish the primary...
My reflection on bulk steel removal was more in response to the post earlier in the thread where the user was attempting to reestablish a primary using the Tormek and had to give-up at 25d... I think this reflects a negative bias on alternative bulk steel removal strategies – there really is nothing wrong with an alternative primary strategy for big steel... After all, on a single-bevel bench tool (with few exceptions), the primary is really just a platform for the secondary... I don't care how my primary gets established (except fine dovetail chisels, Japanese chisels and maybe one or two other items) – as long as it's straight and square to the long axis – who cares? I might not admit to scary-sharp on woodworking blogs --- I'll let the joinery speak for itself :)
I'm finishing-up a couple of occasional tables today. I should get to the 20d jig by Wed or Thurs... I'll post a photo...