English-pattern Mortise Chisels

[4-Square]

Did a quick search on English-pattern Mortise Chisels and the last thread I found on was around 2010 and referenced jigs that were discontinued even then...

So, is there a straight-forward method of honing an English-pattern mortise (EPM) chisel on the Tormek T-7?

Specifically, I'm talking about the set made by Ray Iles... They are D2 and a bit of a bear to hone on flat stones... Being that they are D2... I've got the T-7 and just about every attachment I could want... The EPM is about the only thing I don't hone on it...

Off the top of my head, the factory primary bevel is 20d, secondary 30d and tertiary at 35d. The secondary and tertiary are quite small – about 1/8" and 1/16" respectively... After several honings, many forgo the secondary bevel and jump from 20d to 35d with the final bevel between 1/8" and 1/16"... So far, I've kept to factory practice....

The primary bevel is quite long – maybe 1" and suspect that could be a problem (or maybe the problem) or jig holding. The Iles chisels are slightly tapered in cross section, while more traditional examples are distinctly trapezoidal.

Here is a link: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/mortChisel/mortChis1.asp

Any and all help appreciated...

[Herman Trivilino]

The SVS-32 might work.

[Ken S]

Welcome, 4 square. 

I remember the posts well. Ionut posted the original question. I was one of those who posted replies. Ionut hd done Tormek demonstrations in western Canada. He is very innovative. He had a large mortise chisel which should not fit in the SE-76 Square Edge jig. While the SE-76 is a noticeable improvement over it predecessor jig, the SVH-60, that improvement came at a cost. The cost was having slightly smaller thickness capability.

The latest edition of the handbook does not include instructions on the SVH-60. My hardbound copy of Edition 9.5 (2007) does include a section on the SVH-60. If you decide to go the SVH route, and cannot obtain the instructions from support.tormek.se  , let me know and I will scan them for you.

I think it would be worthwhile trying to sharpen your mortise chisel using just the universal support bar. The later editions of the handbook make no reference to mortising chisels. I would be curious to know if earlier editions mention them.

If you are interested in obtaining the older jig, contact the importer for your country. Ionut helped me locate one through Big Bear Tools, the importer for western Canada. This was several years ago. You might find a "new old stock" jig, as I did, although more time has passed. Surprisingly, not many are for sale on the online auction sites. Perhaps the old timers are content, even though the SE-76 is a noticeable improvement.

Do keep us posted.

[Elden]

   I like my SVH-60. So far referencing off the face has not proven to be a problem. The edge reference seems to perform fairly well. At this point, it does not sound like the SVH-60 requires much more attention than the SE-76  to me. It may be I am misinterpreting what I have read. I do not have a SE-76.
   My first 1/4" bench chisel came out great. Might be it was beginner's chance. All the good information that came as a result from other's problems definitely helped!

[Jan]

Did a quick search on English-pattern Mortise Chisels and the last thread I found on was around 2010 and referenced jigs that were discontinued even then...

So, is there a straight-forward method of honing an English-pattern mortise (EPM) chisel on the Tormek T-7?

Welcome to the forum, 4 square.

At the end of the last year I opened thread entitled "How to sharpen 3/4" mortise chisel." I think the rich discussion may be interesting for you.

http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2295.msg11064#msg11064

My chisel was not English-pattern Mortise Chisels, but an antique heavy duty mortise chisel with a bevel length 1 5/8" (40 mm). I have decided to keep the bevel of my old heavy duty mortise chisel flat. That was why I have mounted the Tormek Universal support on my belt sander.



Because my chisel was too big for the Square edge jig (SE 76), I removed the special Tormek lower clamp and replaced it temporarily with two small steel plates bolt together by four screws.

Everything worked fine. The only difficulty I had to overcome were the squarness of the bevel, because the chisel was twisted.

Jan

[Rob]

Great improvisation...the jig wouldn't work nearly so well without the iron in the background :-)

[Jan]

I was expecting your objection against background uniformity, Rob. The old iron is used to cool the belt sander. 

Jan

[Elden]

Nice setup, Jan.

[Jan]

Thank you, Elden.

To be fair it is necessary to admit, that the work with the belt sander is not as comfortable and precise as with Tormek sharpening system.

As I already mentioned in the above quoted thread, the belt sander is noisy and dusty. When the belt is worn out and hot it is often bulged in the middle of its width. The bulge causes that the bevel is not exactly flat. That is why I prefer the grinding direction when the belt is running away from the edge, because the belt is pressed down before it reaches the bevel edge.

Jan

[4-Square]

Thanks for the responses...

While the bench-mounted belt sander is tempting...

I've got some stationary sanders in the shop – disk, edge and belt... If I fashion a purpose-made jig that runs in the miter slot, I could give that a go for reestablishing the primary bevel... D2 is a tough steel... So the belt sander idea is sparking some future jig-activity... Thanks.

Turns-out my dad's got the 60 – which he doesn't use since getting the 76... The chisels in question won't fit the stock 60... However, if I hot-rod the 60 and replace the existing threaded posts with something about ½ longer, it could work... I'm not much of a machinist, but will give it a whirl. I figure a die-grinder, drill press and McMaster-Carr will get it done...

Suspect it won't be quite as pretty as the factory jig, but the goal is sharpening...

Thanks again.

[Ken S]

4-Square,

A couple of related thoughts:

You could sharpen the mortise chisel using just the universal support. I suspect that was the original Tormek method. With the chisel Jan was sharpening, it might have worked better than a jig. It was his grandfather's chisel, and probably hand forged. Jan noted it was not square and parallel, typical of tools of the time.

With a modern tool from Ray Iles, I would expect it to be ground straight. In that case, you might try the SVD-110 Tool Rest or the SVX-150 Scissors Jig. I would start with the scissors jig. It has a lower center of gravity, as noted by Herman for his knife jig. If you made up a small drafting square to hold the chisel straight, it should slide easily across the surface. Turning the jig around will get it quite close to the wheel for good control. You might possibly need a simple hex head 600 thread bolt for better clearance from the wheel.

Whatever you do, please keep us posted.

Ken

[4-Square]

Yea, Ray Ile's kit is certainly well made and quite square -- so I'm going to use a positive-holding jig to keep it that way -- one thing about hand-mortising --- you want a square chisel or all sorts of bad things can happen...

Going to go two routes simultaneously...

Looking at the 60, I notice the threaded posts are rusting... I'm going to cut them off, drill/tap the jig's base and use 18-8 threaded rod for the replacement posts -- maybe 1/2 to 3/4 longer... I may/may-not use a nut to hold them – I may just use loctite... I notice that the 76 went that route, go figure... So that should get me a jig that can hold the chisels in question... Maybe it'll look as good as the factory jig after all – who knows...

The second project will be a miter-slot jig for my stationary belt sander to re-establish the 20d primary bevel. I figure it would take forever to grind that much D2 on a Tormek. I may actually make it for the disk sander – haven't decided...

I'll post a photo or two when done...

[Herman Trivilino]

Yea, Ray Ile's kit is certainly well made and quite square -- so I'm going to use a positive-holding jig to keep it that way -- one thing about hand-mortising --- you want a square chisel or all sorts of bad things can happen...

You will also need to make sure that the grindstone is properly trued. And even then you won't be assured of a square end. It takes practice, skill, and constant checking to make sure you're grinding a square end.

[Dakotapix]

I was happy to see this thread show up here. I recently picked up two of these English bolstered mortising chisels off the bay and was looking for a way to change the grind angle. My goal was to go to the 20 degree primary bevel and then to the 35 degree working bevel as used in the Ray Iles chisels. The current square edge jig could not handle the thick stock but from this thread I saw that the original jig supplied in the old 2000 Tormek might work. Yup, I can just barely fit the chisels in the old jig. I haven't re-ground yet though. I just sold my Jet table saw and am reorganizing my new found shop space. I had been advised on other forums that a hollow grind is not best for these chisels but I'm going to do this anyway. I'll flatten out the hollow manually if I need to.

[Ken S]

Dakotapix, I think the hullabaloo about the hollow grind is overblown, at least with tormek size wheels. Yes, it is obvious with six inch wheels, but it is less so with eight or ten inch wheels.I think this prejudice goes back to the days when smaller grinders were the norm. If anyone is concerned about the slight hollow being less strong than a flat ground, adding three degrees to the bevel should solve the problem. For this thick a chisel, I would add five degrees.

Ken