Hi All,
I am really starting to dislike the honing device for the tormek. The reason being is that I am relying on the metal bar that goes over the wheel in order to true the stone. The problem is that the bar is not straight, so every time I hone the wheel, it makes the wheel uneven no matter what I do, and, not to mention, screws up my valuable planing blades, and wastes my time.
Is anyone else having this problem? Is there a solution? I need VERY PRECISE sharpening for my plane blades, so that I can plane curly maple. And when I say precise, I mean PRECISE. They need to be sharper than a razor, perfectly flat, and the angle of the blade needs to be square. I'm coming to the conclusion that the Tormek is just not designed for this level of precision due to the bar used for honing. It's too flexible, and the nature of the bar is just lacking the for precision honing. I think if they used a stronger metal and made it square instead of round, then you could get precision honing, but I just don't think you can achieve precision honing with the current setup.
Am I wrong? Am I missing something here? Maybe there's something I can do?
Thanks!
G
your universal sppt bar shouldn't be bent. Has the machine been dropped or had some other major trauma? That's a dealer issue for sure.
Having said that...when you true the stone with the diamond truing tool the stone will end up exactly parallel to the bar even if that plane is not truly plumb (with the earth). When you then mount your jigs on the bar they should still present the edge exactly parallel to the stone (I think??)
But....a bent bar isn't right and needs checking back with the dealer. I put a lot of pressure on mine when sharpening tricky HSS blades and its never bent
Ted,
Rob is correct that it doesn't matter if the Universal Support is square (though I would be surprised if it was out by very much), since once you true the wheel, the stone surface and the Universal Support are parallel, which is all that is needed.
We need some more detail on what is happening to your grind.
Oh, and what type of plane do you have that has absolutely no lateral adjustment?
True but if the universal support is moved to the front of the machine, there's no guarantee that it is now parallel to the top supports.
Quote from: MakerUnknown on June 13, 2013, 02:03:00 AM
True but if the universal support is moved to the front of the machine, there's no guarantee that it is now parallel to the top supports.
Sure there is. If it is not parallel, loosen the bolts that secure the horizontal support to the frame, align and retighten.
Smacks forehead!
Hi All,
I took a couple of pictures to illustrate my point. Is there a way to upload images to this thread?
Thanks
Yes. they need to be uploaded to somewhere like photobucket. Once you have a URL for the photo, it can be posted here.
Quote from: KSMike on March 03, 2013, 04:50:38 AM
Here's a little tutorial in case it helps.
To post photos, you first have to "host" them on a photo hosting site. Many use photobucket.com, where you can get a free account very easily. Once you have an account there, you upload your photos to that site. It has all kinds of features so that you can organize your pictures into directories, etc.
Once uploaded, each picture will have a line of "img" (image) code which you can copy and paste into your post here. Here's the photobucket window showing what I mean. This is a photo of my Greenlee drawknife, which I uploaded to Photobucket long ago. If I want to post the pic here, I just go to that picture in Photobucket, copy the contents as shown by the arrow...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/TenRingMike/Misc/Postphotoexample.jpg)
then, back here in my Tormek (or any other) forum posting, I just paste that IMG value into my post, wherever I want the picture to appear. When I click the "Post" button you magically see...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/TenRingMike/Shop/Greenleedrawknife.jpg)
Trust me, it takes 10 times as long to write this up as it does to actually do it.
Just to add to that. I found when I experimented with this some months ago that in photobucket there are various (5 or so) options/choices on how to copy the url link. If you want the image to be directly rendered inside your post you need to click the option named "direct" rather than "img"
That copies the url to your clipboard....you then choose the icon in the post button menu (far left 2nd row down) that looks like a little mona lisa, and paste the link from photobucket in between the bracketed characters it creates. Basically the mona lisa button creates the two slices of bread in a sandwich....your copied link from photobucket is the pastrami/egg salad, turkey, coronoation chicken, BLT, cheese n tomato, steak.
Blimey....I'm starving now and it's only 8:15am!!!
Sounds like baloney to me. ;D
Hope that translates for our non-U.S. audience.
That's a joke. The instructions are spot-on.
What the hell is baloney anyway? I appreciate its slang for rubbish and also a food. I've long known the slang but never actually known what the food is? Some kind of meat maybe?
Yes. "Some kind" being the operative phrase. Kind of like "all beef" vs. "all meat."
Well, technically, the sausage product is bologna. The nonsense spread about is baloney. Pronounced identically (at least in the U.S.). I wonder if what Oscar Meyer sells would even be recognized in the city of Bologna?
I see...so its like the kebab meat they sell here from roadside vans. I think its loosely based on lamb...apparently they butcher all the decent cuts off and then the remaining carcass gets "jet washed" to blast the remaining scraps of meat, gristle, lips and ringpiece.
That gets reconstituted in a process not dis-similar to making plywood (and probably with similar resins added).
Its then formed into conical shapes and skewered around a tonking great metal spike which sits on a vertical rotisserie. They slice the cooked outsides off and serve it in pitta bread with chilli sauce and salad.
No wonder the Greeks are in such a mess!!
Well, after that description, bologna doesn't sound so bad. Or even baloney.
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag117/georgekellop/1_zpsce8f44ce.jpg) (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/georgekellop/media/1_zpsce8f44ce.jpg.html)
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag117/georgekellop/4_zps5520eb13.jpg) (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/georgekellop/media/4_zps5520eb13.jpg.html)
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag117/georgekellop/Picture148_zps8a18fab2.jpg) (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/georgekellop/media/Picture148_zps8a18fab2.jpg.html)
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag117/georgekellop/5_zpsf4cb93f7.jpg) (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/georgekellop/media/5_zpsf4cb93f7.jpg.html)
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag117/georgekellop/2_zps0124bbe6.jpg) (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/georgekellop/media/2_zps0124bbe6.jpg.html)
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag117/georgekellop/6_zps8150cebf.jpg) (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/georgekellop/media/6_zps8150cebf.jpg.html)
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag117/georgekellop/7_zpsf40940a7.jpg) (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/georgekellop/media/7_zpsf40940a7.jpg.html)
So, what we're looking for is the cracks of light shining through. I am using a machinist square which is perfectly square. You can see the bar that is supposed to be square is not square, therefore, when I hone, it makes the wheel not square, and then the blade is not square.
Sorry, youll notice that I switched blades halfway through. I did it on two different blades, and both came out the same. The rust does not effect the blade on the last pic, because I took off the rust by rubbing the edge of the blade on fine sand paper on a piece of granite. This did not distort the original angle.
Also notice that the angle of light shining through on the bar, is the same as on the wheel, and is the same as on the blade. This distorted angle follows through consistently it seems like.
Glad you got the pics posted. It's a little hard to tell whether the bar is really not straight, BUT even if it's off a bit, the wheel surface should match it after a pass with the truing tool. And once that's done, the blade jig should run exactly parallel to the wheel surface, even if the wheel surface isn't exactly 90* to the side of the wheel.
There's one more variable: how certain are you that the blade is exactly square in the SE-76 jig? It only takes a hair of crooked-ness along the edge of the blade to make it not sit square in the jig - and you'll end up with the results you're seeing.
Here's a crummy picture of what I mean. This is me holding the blade of my square along the long edge of a chisel. See that tiny sliver of light? That's all it takes for the chisel to be out-of-square in the SE-76, if I were to just put it up against the registration edge of the jig. For this reason, I often have to tweak the position of the tool in the SE-76 in order to achieve squareness at the cutting edge.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/TenRingMike/Tools/Sharpening/Tormek/IMAG0025.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/TenRingMike/media/Tools/Sharpening/Tormek/IMAG0025.jpg.html)
A relevant question would be, how much precision is needed in the squareness of the edge? That depends on the tool. With some chisels, the amount of OOS (out-of-squareness) wouldn't make a whit of difference. With other chisels it might. With plane irons from Stanley style planes (such as the ones you show in your pictures), that miniscule amount of OOS should be easily compensated for by use of the lateral adjuster lever. Unless I'm missing something, which wouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
Quote from: tedn1 on June 13, 2013, 12:44:56 AM
I need VERY PRECISE sharpening for my plane blades, so that I can plane curly maple. And when I say precise, I mean PRECISE. They need to be sharper than a razor, perfectly flat, and the angle of the blade needs to be square.
i am wondering what you are planing which requires such precision. Also, are you using a jointer plane, a smoother, or another plane for this work.?
A jointer is often sharpened with some camber (rounding) in the edge to prevent "plane tracks" (having the edges of the blade dig into the wood). A smoother usually has a very slight amount of camber (perhaps .001") for the same reason.
Rob makes a good point about the lateral adjustment on planes. Even Lie-Nielsen builds them into the bench planes. I have an old (1891) Stanley jack plane with a broken frog. A small hammer and gentle tapping helps square up the blade quite nicely.
If you want a really keen polished edge, by that I mean 8000 grit or beyond, you should use something else for the last stage(s). The Tormek will do the harder work quickly and efficiently. For the ultimate edge, I would finish it off with my Norton 8000 waterstone. You can go further than that if you feel the need.
I have not worked with curly maple. Do you plane it with the standard 45 degree frog? You might benefit from a higher frog (if you are using lie-Nielsen planes) or a higher bevel angle blade in a low angle plane. (That sounds contradictory, but it works.) Or, if you are using old Stanley planes like most of us, do a google search "double bevel sharpening brian burns" Brian's well done book was recently mentioned on the forum. I have exchanged several emails with him. He's a nice guy and has worked out quite a good system of adapting conventional plane blades to higher angles using a double bevel.
Do post some more information about your work.
Ken
Hi KSMike and Ken,
I really appreciate you guys taking the time to post back and help me with this problem.
To answer KSMike, I think the bar is bent sloping downwards. So the part where it's held by the Tormek is high, and the part where it ends, is low. I understand what you mean by the bar truing the stone exactly, even if there's a slope to it. Although, I wonder, what if the slope isn't exactly straight? :) What if it starts high, goes low, and then comes up high again? Not sure if that would cause a problem.
Concerning the jig, I was wondering about that myself, actually. The problem with the jig is that I have to trust the the edge of the jig is at a perfect right angle, because the way that it works is that you just push the blade up against the wall of the jig, and that's that. There's no adjustment for the jig wall or anything, So what you've got, is what you got. I make sure that it is snug up against the wall, but that's really all I can do. I mean, honestly, the problem could be with the jig itself. Maybe the wall is not straight.
The picture that you post is very good. Thanks for posting it. If I was acheiving results like this, it would not be a problem at all for me. It looks like you're high on the side and low in the middle. I could true that up with a couple swipes on the Japanese water stone and have a perfect blade edge, no problem. I don't know how you are acheiving that edge on this machine. Mine doesn't work like that.
To answer Ken, I am planing the most difficult and most challenging thing that one could plane (as far as I know of at least), which is violin ribs. They are extremely difficult to plane because the blade likes to bite into the flames of the maple and take out huge chunks. If everything is not exactly precise, your work will be ruined.
Yes, I agree with lateral adjustments. I definitely adjust it laterally with a small hammer. However, with the precise nature of the work that I am doing, it's only acceptable to adjust the plane a fraction of a hair, because the plane blade needs to be fully supported by the mouth. If it is not, it will bite into the flames. If I was planing some other type of wood, I would be made in the shade. I can plane poplar all day with a sub-par plane, but ribs are a different animal.
So I'm not sure what I will need to do. May have to sell it, which would be unfortunate, because I probably will only get half of my original investment back. Need to think it through.
But thanks for your responses. I really appreciate the help on this forum!!
Have you ever had a hot dog, Rob? It's pretty much the same processed meat that's in baloney.
It's the simplest sandwich to make because it comes sliced and ready to go. Most kids love them with a little mustard and cheese.
Ted,
Let's break things down a little. First, don't worry about "square" on the Universal Support. It isn't important (yet). First thing that concerns me is that if I am seeing your photo correctly, it looks like the Universal Support isn't straight...and now that would present problems.
Check the straightness of the bar, without concern for whether it is square to the legs, and post back here what you find. Also, what country are you in? If it isn't straight, it should be replaced under warranty. The process differs with your country, but I can point you in the right direction in most cases.
Quote from: Herman Trivilino on June 14, 2013, 04:54:10 AM
Have you ever had a hot dog, Rob? It's pretty much the same processed meat that's in baloney.
It's the simplest sandwich to make because it comes sliced and ready to go. Most kids love them with a little mustard and cheese.
A flat hot dog...fantastic...I love America :-)
Ted,
Interesting and demanding work. By all means, look up Brian Burns online. Brian is a guitarmaker. His methods are well thought through. His book is also quite cleverly published. He prints it himself on his own computer. This has the real advantage that even the smallest revisions are incorporated in the next "edition". As I said before, I exchanged emails with him several years ago. As well as knowledgeable, he seems like a good fellow. I believe you would benefit from Brian's experience with planing difficult woods.
My daughter is a cellist. Naturally her fingerboard has no frets or bumps, (She played the viola da gamba for a while and hated the frets!) Just like playing in tune, the Tormek requires some subtle variation in finger pressure to achieve a high level of squareness. Use a light touch and check your edge often with your machinist's square. Add a bit more pressure to the high side. You will achieve flat and square.
I experienced similar frustrations when I first started working with a wooden view camera. I had great difficulty seeing with the groundglass. It took a lot of frustration and will power to get past the learning curve. Once I had crossed over the learning curve, my wooden 45 camera quickly became my favorite. No other camera has the degree of expression available with a large format view camera, nor do the smaller hand cameras have the negative quality.
Stick with your Tormek until you have mastered it. Your work is demanding, more so than most work. It requires you develop more than usual skill with your tools, including your Tormek. Allow yourself the luxury of an apprenticeship with the Tormek. Buy several blades, good blades, and practice. (Make sure you have a sharpie marker, too.) Don't discard the violin because the violinist can't play in tune.
When you have mastered your Tormek, you will be in a position to decide if it is the tool for you. It will not lose any value if you use it for another year. Make your decision from a position of skill.
I wish you the best of luck and do keep us posted.
Ken
ps Contact Brian Burns.
There are plenty of comments elsewhere on the forum about getting square edged plane blades (I'll try and link them later). As one who suffered from non-square edges and did quite a lot of investigation into their causes, these links will hopefully give you some clues.
The earlier post by KSMike about minor angular differences where the blade is clamped is a very good point.
For example a 1 degree movement at the hub of a bicycle wheel is a small lateral distance, but the same 1 degree movement creates a larger lateral distance at the wheel rim. This effect not only applies for butting the tool up against the edge of the SE76, but also applies in the other plane where any twist can have a major influence as compound angles now apply. Likewise applied finger pressure is an easy method of causing off square grinding.
However starting with the basics of what you have posted.
I have just been out and put a straight edge along my universal support bar, and finnicky as it is due to its round nature, it is not straight all the way along. Trying to get the straight edge steady and in line on the very top surface was difficult to judge.
If I put the straight edge over the whole length, and hold it down between the two rods (threaded and plain), I can eyeball what looks like 1mm gap at the far end of the universal support bar. The deviation appears linear along the length. If I use the straight edge over the 'working' part of the universal support (ie where the SE76 operates) it is straight and any gaps are miniscule. Thus there is a very small amount of bend of the universal support bar between the two rods - likely as a result of bending the bar end and welding on the second rod, irrespective of any stress relieving which may have been done.
When the straight edge is put along the side of the universal support bar there are again miniscule gaps but no distinct trend or error of note. Too small to attempt measuring and not worth the effort as bigger errors can be introduced by the operator.
It is difficult to tell from your photograph, but with the straight edge over the whole length of the universal support there appears to be a concave gap (ie bar is bowed) which may by 2+ mm deep. I think that is a problem.
If you move your straight edge so that it only lies on the 'working part' of the universal support (ie to the right of the threaded rod as per your first photo) is this straight? If it is, it would indicate that the concave appearance is caused by the non-working part between the rods. If the concave part is still applicable to the working part of the universal support bar, can you measure or estimate the amount?
If it transpires that your universal support is not out of specification (although no technical tolerances are listed) then off square grinding comes down to a mixture of factors. The following may seem like a lot of reading, but you will see that you are not alone, and there are some good pointers how to overcome the idiosyncrasies of using a Tormek!
You have not indicated whether you are new to using a Tormek or whether this is a new problem. Whatever, there are many on this forum who have got the Tee shirt etc..
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1469.msg4791#msg4791
Handtool working
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1463.msg4748#msg4748
Square Edge Issues with SE76
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1366.0
QuoteA flat hot dog...fantastic...I love America :-)
Flat, yes. Hot, no.
Well, there is the rare fried baloney sandwich.
Oh right...you eat it cold? Like we would a ham sandwich.
Personally, I found the following information extremely helpful. It even includes useful information on knife selection and handling: :D
http://brunching.com/idiotsandwich.html
Thanks, Mark. That was educational for me, now I know that the end without the wood is the end I'm supposed to sharpen. :o
That actually makes more sense when I think about it. :-[
I know what you mean Herman. And all along I've been trying to sharpen the whole thing all this time! No wonder that one end would never get get sharp. I mean really... Who knew? :)