In the words of the old bard himself.....
Can I sharpen scissors without the jig?
I have every jig except the axe and scissor jig.......trying to resist but I do need to sharpen three pairs of scissors!
I'm sure that I could do "something" to the scissors freehand. The only issues that I see revolve around that funny "sharpen" word that you use. :) How good are you at freehand work?
You might could possibly use the small knife jig. Maybe even by clamping to the handle of the scissor. Scissors generally have a pretty steep bevel, so you might get away with it.
I'd sure want to practice on junk first!
I'm alright at free handing knives. I could give it a go...got a naff pair in the garage I could practice on
I found this to be instructional:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGMk7qMPeSk
It is talking about fine, expensive, 800 mm radius stylist shears, but it pretty cool anyway.
I thought it might be cool to sharpen shears, but I found that it is really way more involved than I expected, requiring lots of practice. They have some pretty nifty, (and expensive), equipment though.
One interesting point is how they deal with the burr.
I've sharpened scissors that my wife uses to cut my hair. They seem to work great. Very sharp and no grabbing. But nonetheless, I'm sticking with kitchen/garden scissors!
I would say use a jig for sure. Even if you were really good at freehand knife sharpening i would still say use the jig. There's alot more going on with scissors than knives, and when you enter the big bad world of professional convex scissors, things start get very serious indeed.
Yea, just to reiterate on what Justin said, "when you enter the big bad world of professional convex scissors, things start get very serious indeed."
When we speak of scissors and Tormek in the same sentence, we mean general purpose/garden/kitchen type scissors. Touching professional convex shears to a Tormek would be akin to getting a haircut with a lawn mower.
If I had every jig except for these 2. I would just spend a little more money to be complete. I assume you are not buying all these jigs to save money. You would have to sharpen a lot of drills, for example, to justify a drill bit jig.
You got the planer knife jig, you got the drill sharpening jig. just buy the last two and be done with it. Then you have a complete set.
Just to add to the data... I recently bought the scissors jig, despite having read a number of less-than-glowing reviews of it. I bought it because I had found an old pair of my Mom's utility scissors in one of my shop drawers. I lost her to cancer several years ago and can remember using that same pair of scissors all the way back to kindergarten (and they weren't new then). It's an old pair of Valley Forge brand, with no adjustability other than a peened rivet. I should have practiced on something less sentimental first, but it's what I had so I went for it. They were pretty loose and the mating sides of the blades had just the very beginnings of some surface staining; not enough to call it surface rust, though technically that's what was starting. But the tips were unbroken and they still felt great in my hand. I decided these scissors deserved better than to just rust away.
I started by taking a light pass down the mating side of each blade on a wire wheel to be sure all rust was gone. Then I watched Jeff's video one more time (by the way he has a priceless tip in there about setting the angle), and chucked the first blade into the jig. It took more passes than I was expecting, which got me concerned that maybe I was just ruining what was left of these scissors. But I found that, as is usual with the Tormek, if I stopped every couple of passes and checked my progress, paid attention to where steel was being removed, etc., it worked perfectly. I flipped them around, took about the same number of passes on the 2nd blade (I was so nervous I forgot to count my passes), and stopped. I took them out of the jig, pulled the burr off on the end grain of a nearby 2x4, and then took them to the anvil and tightened up the rivet with a ball-peen hammer. Care must be taken on that, since there's no good way to loosen them up if you go too far. Finally I polished the outside of the blades with Autosol and put a drop of jojoba oil on the joint for lubrication.
These are now the sharpest, smoothest operating scissors in the house (and I've got some very good vintage scissors). These are right up there with my grandfather's brass & steel Salm scissors, which spent their life in his executive desk drawer. When I use them, I have to remember to move slowly so as not to risk splitting an atom and destroying all of humanity.
Way to go Mike! It's a great feeling to save an old edge tool, and a memory too!
Thanks for the info on how to deal with a loose peened bolt/rivet. I hadn't thought of just bashing (carefully) it back down again. Duh. I feel stupid. :)
I have a similar pair. No real sentiment towards them, but old and well made, just too loose.
Yes just be careful about going too far; there should still be a bit of play in the joint when the scissors are all the way open. You only want to tighten the rivet enough so that the blades mate smoothly all the way through their travel, and no more.
In their day, these were probably little more than dime store scissors; my folks couldn't have afforded any more than that at the time they were bought. It's funny how 50+ years of hard use later and all they need is a good cleaning, sharpening, and adjustment. Sure beats the crap they make now with their cheap blades and plastic handles covered with mold flash that rubs your fingers raw.
A hint to Tormek dealers who would like to sell more Tormek jigs:
Whenever someone purchases a Tormek, include a coupon for a free pair of inexpensive scissors. (Or the scissors themselves.)
Or, to the Tormek users, (myself included), give up chips for a couple days and buy a pair of inexpensive scissors. Why debate whether or not to attempt to sharpen a valued pair, either value of sentimental value?
I'm in almost the same situation as Rob. (Almost because I do have the scissors jig. My local Tormek dealer had a couple 20% off sales, and I loaded up.) My reservation with buying the ax jig is that I don't own an ax. If I should decide to purchase the ax jig, should I also purchase an ax?.....
Ken
Mr. Mike said; "It's funny how 50+ years of hard use later.."
I miss quality manufacturing. Whatever happened? Now it seems that almost _everything_, (even toothpicks! Really?), are specially "imported from the Orient", something which no longer seems to have the meaning it once had.
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to start a bashing thread here. It's just that these old, beautiful tools, even dime store tools, were truly made to last a lifetime or longer. Now it's all disposable. Sad.
Absolutely Ken! Everybody need an ax. You should probably purchase several, and a hatchet too!
Mike, I love that story, and I'll share another scissor revival story after I have my say about the scissor jig.
When I started selling Tormek, I also looked at the set-up and thought that the knife jig could be used for scissors. The difference is that the angle of attack on a knife is very low and on a pair of scissors it is very high. That short bevel on a scissor makes it difficult to control. After a while I also realized that the scissor jig is one of the better values in the jig line-up, because the support plate can be used as a general purpose tool rest.
Now, to my scissor jig story. I did an episode of New Yankee Workshop with Norm Abram in 2000. In the rehearsal, Norm and his producer had cooked up a joke to play on me. I was showing them the system and sharpening several of Norm's tools when they handed me a pair of scissors he had used in fiberglassing a boat. They were completely encased in fiberglass fibers and cured resin. No one could even get them open. Unphased, and not knowing it was supposed to be a joke, I took out my pocketknife, sliced through the fiberglass, and got the blades separated, then proceeded to sharpen them in a matter of minutes. I cut a four-fold (eight layers) stack of felt, then shaved 1/16th off the same stack with the second cut. When they all picked their jaws off the floor, we started taping.
Jeff, Is that episode available? I checked the New Yankee site but their archive did not go back that far.
Jeff, I remember that episode! Very cool to hear the back story on it.
Ken, don't buy an axe... unless you're OK with buying more, because axes are like potato chips. I'm in the market for my 2nd rehab right now. I'm looking for a True Temper Kelly jersey pattern.
(Full disclosure, my axes are the one thing so far that I don't sharpen on the Tormek).
This is interesting. An Ax to Grind:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/recreational_trails/publications/fs_publications/99232823/page05.cfm
That video is what got me interested in axes in the first place. Bernie isn't just an entertaining fellow, he seriously knows his stuff when it comes to historic preservation (check out his other internal training videos that are on youtube). Unfortunately he's now retired (I tried to contact him with a question at his last post assignment). If you watch that video 10 times, you'll see something new (and important) in it each time.
Also, there's a downloadable PDF document that goes with the video. Actually I think the video was made as an abbreviated companion to the document; the document includes a ton more detail, as well as a template for an axe edge shaping guide.
Mike, did I see in another thread that you were looking at the MultiTool? That's a fine machine for both rehabilitation and sharpening of axes.
Bravo, Jeff!
Incidentally, I have the DVD and drawing for that episode. It was good purchase. I also remember you post that you put all the drawers on one side of the work station.
Good story.
Ken
I don't recall mentioning the Multi-Tool, but I'll check it out. My approach thus far has been a vinegar soak followed by the wire wheel (I swear that's the most-used tool in my shop), and then files (I relieved the local Lowe's of their last remaining US-made Nicholsons), and finally a Lansky puck.
The final sharpening/honing has proven to be the most challenging part, mostly because of wanting to maintain the convex edge. Many use sandpaper over an old mouse pad on a granite plate, and that might be my next experiment. But I think in my case the biggest problem is simply lack of practice with the puck. Those guys felling 25'-diameter fir trees while standing on jacks didn't tote granite plates and mouse pads around with them, so apparently they aren't necessary. :)
Mike, check out the Multitool on sharptoolusa's site. If I didn't already have a good belt grinder I would add it to my want list. It looks like a very solid product.
Ken
Thanks Ken, I'll check it out.
What I'd really like to add to the shop is a KMG variable speed DC belt grinder with the slack belt fixture. The $2K+ price tag is a bit of a sticking point. :o
Quote from: Jeff Farris on February 27, 2013, 01:25:31 AM
After a while I also realized that the scissor jig is one of the better values in the jig line-up, because the support plate can be used as a general purpose tool rest.
Jeff, is there an advantage in the base plate of the scissors jig over the SVD- 110 tool rest? It appears to be a little narrower in the picture which could be advantageous at times.
I've got a copy of that episode on VHS and I've been meaning to transfer it to DVD. I saw it when it aired, then again a couple of years later in reruns. That was what led me to purchase the Tormek.
Anyway, I doubt you could free hand scissors. But it would cost you nothing to try as there are lots of cheap scissors just about anywhere you look.
I agree with Jeff that the platform of the scissors jig is useful for many other purposes. It's probably the reason I've never bought the tool rest.
My daughter-in-law is a hair stylist. I would never dream of even trying to sharpen her expensive shears on my Tormek. You could buy a Tormek for the cost of two or three of those shears.
Herman, maybe even 2 or 3 Tormeks for the price of the scissors!
http://diamondroseshears.com/diamond-series/
I presume these are, or had better be, the most spectacularly wonderful shears.
Personally, I think anyone who would pay that much for scissors is....
Wow! I just can't imagine anyone paying that much but I'll ask my daughter-in-law if she knows anyone who has. And why!
I've used the scissor jig with great success on household scissors. As opposed to doing knives where I prefer to work away from the edge, when using the scissor jig I work into the edge. I seem to get better results that way. Slow and easy is the key to getting good results.
As I once mentioned on another thread, the main thrust of my business is the sharpening of salon shears. That's a whole different world from any other type of sharpening I do. I kind of chuckled at Herman's remarks about the cost of some salon shears. Just last week, I set a new personal record for the cost of a pair of shears I was sharpening.....$4,000. Prior to that, $3,500 was the high for me. These are extreme examples but it's fairly routine for me to service shears costing $500 to $1,000 and those in the $1,000 to $2,000 range are becoming much more common.
As I, and others, have mentioned previously, the Tormek machine is woefully inadequate for use on these salon shears. By the same token, the specialized equipment I use for the salon work is pretty much useless in any other sort of sharpening.
An interesting note....in the world of hair stylists and salons, the terms "scissors" and "shears" are used interchangeably. I do it myself but find I use the term " shears " more frequently. By strict definition, though, all these tools are technically scissors.
Tom
One of my grandfathers was a farmer and a barber his whole life. I can guarantee you that his house and his first few cars combined didn't cost that much, even adjusted for inflation.
But I have no doubt they are incredible - uh, instruments.
Quote from: kb0rvo on February 27, 2013, 02:31:34 AM
Quote from: Jeff Farris on February 27, 2013, 01:25:31 AM
After a while I also realized that the scissor jig is one of the better values in the jig line-up, because the support plate can be used as a general purpose tool rest.
Jeff, is there an advantage in the base plate of the scissors jig over the SVD- 110 tool rest? It appears to be a little narrower in the picture which could be advantageous at times.
No advantage, except on short tools, but no reason to duplicate with the SVD-110, if you have the SVX-150.
So does this mean I could use the torlok tool rest to sharpen scissors if held 60 deg to the stone? Maybe clamp the blade in the knife jig? I appreciate I'm kinda reaching here. The only reason I'm banging on about this is my requirement for scissor sharpening is very low. Just a couple household regulars and my beaten up ones in the shop ( which I use to cut sandpaper with).
Hey Black Mamba,
Just curious. What machine do you use for salon scissors?
I checked out, very briefly, sharpening salon scissors and the array of machines was unique and varied. Some have like five discs, others moved the scissors automatically, another had small round hoops with the grinding surface on the inside edge. Pretty interesting.
So, I Googled scissors vs shears. I think what Wiki says makes sense. Shears are generally larger than scissors, e.g., sheep shears, pruning shears. Ever hear someone say I've got to trim my hedge, but I can't find my prunning scissors? :)
Quote from: Rob on February 27, 2013, 09:49:17 AM
So does this mean I could use the torlok tool rest to sharpen scissors if held 60 deg to the stone? Maybe clamp the blade in the knife jig?
I doubt you'd be happy with the results, but like I said it would cost you nothing to give it a try. I can attest to the fact that the scissors jig does a wonderful job.
I can also attest that tool rest part is handy too.
Hi grepper,
The machine I use is manufactured by Rapid Edge. I went through a rather exhaustive process of research and education about the whole industry of sharpening salon scissors before I committed to any device or system. It was not a decision I made lightly as my total outlay for the package was $21,000. That included the machine AND TRAINING WITH THE MACHINE DESIGNER for a week....on a one-on-one basis. Frankly, there are certainly other equipment options on the market, but I never found one that even approached the quality and capabilities of the Rapid Edge offering. Like I said, I wanted to give myself the best chance possible to succeed in this business and the machine and training by Rapid Edge is absolutely the best out there.
I've seen a number of definitions thrown around relative to scissors and shears. The one most knowledgeable people in my industry accept is as follows:
Both scissors and shears have two "rings ". One ring accommodates the thumb and the other ring accommodates a finger or fingers. In the case of scissors, only one finger will fit into the finger ring. With shears, the finger ring will accept two ( or more ) fingers at the same time. Some scissors will have an extension ( called a " tang ") jutting off of the finger ring that allows for the placement of another finger for greater control by the stylist. Designed for one finger in the finger ring....it's a scissor. Designed for two or more fingers in the finger ring....it's a shear.
Mr. Mamba,
I had run across that machine whilst checking around. Now that I see it, that's the one I mentioned that has 5 disks.
I've got to hand it to you for actually following through and mastering that skill! When I first checked it out, I had no idea just what all was involved. It qucikly became apparent that there was way more to it than I ever thought, in expense, training, practice and skill. Sadly, in my situation it looked prohibitive. So, way to go! Bet it's fun and rewarding!
Thanks for clearing up the definition of scissors vs shears. I've always thought one should use the proper terminology.
Mark
Till I joined this forum I didn't even know there was anything special about scissors. I also didn't know hairdressers could be such trouble :-)
It's funny to read some of the salon scissors FAQ's. Like what to do if you drop your $3,000.00 scissors on the floor:
DON'T TOUCH THEM! Immediately call scissors 911!
Whatever you do, don't open or close them!
We will send an emergency response team and a special scissors gurney... :)
You can imagine it.....ooh I could crush a grape :-)
Just the juxtaposition of a gnarled sharpeners calloused hands versus the salon workers makes me smile
You guys wouldn't believe some of the stories I could tell. But I'm like the 3 famous monkeys.....see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. I will say this; hair stylists are an extremely interesting crowd to be around. There's never a dull moment.
If the stylists ever learned to quit dropping their scissors, I might go out of business. Blade damage almost always results from dropping and in some cases it spells doom for the scissors.
Mamba.....you can't leave us dangling like that......at least one war story, come on :-)
Thanks Jeff. The SVD 110 came with my machine. I bought a used Tormek.
Well, Rob....just one.
Two young gentlemen stylist were involved. On prior visits to this particular salon, I had noticed that there was a hint of rancor between these two. But they were both decent folks that I had done work for and I happened to like both of them. To myself, I referred to them as "magic" men....I don't think I ever saw either one of their feet touch the floor as they flitted around.
On this occasion, I was helping a gal who had incurred a bad nick in her favorite pair of scissors. I became aware of some raised voices between these two guys. Upon looking up, I see this one dude grab this dainty umbrella he had sauntered in with ( rainy day ) and he commenced to whack the other guy across the arm. Whereupon, the other guy grabbed a broom that was handy and made several good blows to the first guy's butt. The first guy proceeded to let everyone in the shop know that the other guy was nothing but a cheap whore....all the while screeching as he received more butt blows from the broom. In short order, it was all over. The guy swinging the umbrella landed a solid whack to the other's knee....sending him fleeing from the salon in tears.
There were only two clients in the salon at the time and after a moment of stunned silence by all present, everybody went back to whatever they were doing.
Excellent....Hollywood could use that....lovers tiff :-)
Mr. Mamba,
Just out of curiosity, can you personally tell the difference between a $500 and a $1,000 pair of salon scissors? Or a $1,000 and a $4,000 pair? Are people just paying for brand?
How much real value add, other than something like engraving, etc., is there after, say, $500? Is 440C stainless super expensive?
I mean, one would be tempted to think that a $500 pair of 5" scissors would be, and please excuse the expression, a damn fine pair of scissors! :)
Mr. Mamba man,
Forgot to mention. Your "war story". Beautifully descriptive, and funny. ROFL. ;)
Just returned from getting a haircut, and this thread prompted me to ask my stylist (is there such a thing as a barber anymore?) about her scissors. She pays around $300US for her scissors, and has them sharpened every 6 months at the rate of $25US per pair. She has used the same sharpener (a retired barber) since she started styling hair about 25 years ago. I wonder how those prices compare to what the average stylist pays? It's only a curiosity for me; I won't be buying any $21K sharpening systems anytime soon.
Mike,
HeHeHe... You go to a stylist. :)
Anyone can go to a mere barber, it takes a man's man to go to a stylist! ;)
A man who knows how to cry....who knows where the towels are kept :-)
But I look so good reading tool catalogs while sitting in the spa!
I spent some time reading up on the Multitool. Very interesting indeed, and reviews seem positive. My biggest concern with it is the inability to do variable speed. A Multitool bundled with a VS (preferably DC) motor might be a very useful tool. I could see putting a fine wire wheel or a hard buffing wheel on the left side. I'd also need to spend a little more time understanding their slack belt solution.
8)
Here's my personal take on this whole price/quality issue regarding salon scissors. I should note that I don't sell scissors in my business. I'm inundated with suppliers wanting me to sell their products but I have no interest in getting into that arena. I'm aware that I'm passing on a potentially large income stream but I just don't want the extra complication that dimension would bring to my operations.
It's my personal stylist that owns the $4,000 pair of scissors. It rankles her a bit but I tell her that scissors that cost that much are nothing but an " ego " purchase. And that's true.
grepper....you mention the 440C grade of steel. Actually, that grade of steel is pretty low on the scale of quality steels used in salon scissors. Currently, the highest quality ( and most expensive ) steel being used is identified as ATS 314 and comes from Japan. Let's create the following assumptions:
1. Use ATS 314 in the product blades ( forged, of course )
2. Use the finest parts made.....aside from the blade. I'm talking about the pieces in the tensioning devices and any other extraneous extras ( tangs, etc )
3. Employ the most expensive manufacturing process around ( a group of specialist, each with their own area of expertise....often referred to as the " sensai " method ).
Under these assumptions, a 5'' to 6" pair of scissors should cost no more than $800 to $900......absolute tops. Spend more than that and you enter the world of the " ego " purchase. Now, the ego is very important to all of us. It's important to understand, though, that when you spend these big numbers for scissors, you're not getting any finer cutting instrument than the person who spent the far lesser amount.
I'm always asked for buying advice by my clients. For those that want the most bang for the buck and don't want to get into the esoteric world, I suggest the following:
Always stay with a forged product ( as opposed to a cast product ). Stay with a product coming from Japan, South Korea, or Taiwan. Plan on spending from around $300 to $600. You'll get an excellent product that, with good maintenance, will last for years.
Mr. Mamba,
Very interesting, and as I suspected.
Thanks for the info!
Mark
Tell you what Mamba....you might want to reconsider developing a product distribution stream to your business as I suspect your clients would appreciate your no nonsense common sense approach to the subject matter
You could be to the salon world what Jeff is to Tormek.....a domain expert/consultant. You're not selling them anything, you're helping them optimise their tight budgets on the most appropriate tools to support their business....that's not selling...it's client problem solving...totally different mind set
You'd be excellent at it ill wager
Rob