Hi Ken and all of you other out there
Now are the third generation of my angle setter tool complete and you asking for more information about it in the previous thread. So here it is.
I call it the Knife Angle Setter "Black Edition" (In honor of Tormeks 50th anniversary)
The tool allows you to work very easily and quickly with angle setting between e.g. grinding and honing where you want to use the jig to hold the knife, it helps to set the usb support at the right height. No measurements or calculators are needed to use it, nor any other measuring tools. It may look complicated but it is very fast and simple to work with and easy to learn to use and understand.
The most exciting thing about it is that it is based on a self-adjustment function for different grinding wheel sizes, 150-250mm that means it works for both T4 and T8. The principle could maybe also work for other tools as well.
Enclosing two documents with explanation and pictures where you can read more about it.
I hope there is someone who likes the idea and maybe gets inspired to make an own copies. It might be little difficult for those of you who don't have machines, tools and opportunities to produce all the parts needed, but the principle it is based on can perhaps be used as inspiration.
The project grew a bit from the first prototype as I received questions and suggestions from you members that pushed me to develop and improve the first variant. Thank you so much for your inspiration.
It has been an exciting rabbit hole anyway.
Hope you like it!
Looks well thought out!
Congrats!
Well done! A lot of work went into that.
Nice piece of equipment. Handy to use, without additional resources such as computers and software.
Nice documentation too. Congratulations.
I have added this to jigs section of the Sharpening Handbook (https://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexJigs.html#KnifeAngleSetter). Thank you Per.
Per,
Impressive design!
Ken
Thank you for all the nice reviews and kind words. I personally think it turned out really well and my tests so far have been positive in terms of angle accuracy. Especially when it adjusts to different wheel sizes.
And it works well with other knife jigs too, not just the Kj-45.
Now I'm looking for a new rabbit hole... ;D ;D
Great minds think alike :)
Congratulations on a fine solution Perra, very impressive and detailed work.
We need to reveal in this forum that the Tormek innovation team has developed a similar invention based on the same principles as yours. The product is patented and closing in towards launch.
We reveal this only with the well meaning intention to prevent someone from investing time and money into a product unable to be put to market due to IP rights.
Thank you Perra for your profound engagement. We feel fortunate to have such dedicated users.
Regards
Samuel Stenhem
CEO Tormek.
Thank you Samuel
I really hope I didn't cause problems for Tormek! I really had no idea you were working on a similar project. If I had known, I probably wouldn't have published anything before your launch.
I do this on a hobby level. I have no intentions to produce or market and sell my product on the market. Just a couple of copies for my friends. So it's no problem for me.
You are of course welcome to take part and use everything I have shown if it is something that can improve your products. I would only be proud if I can be of use to Tormek.
It is exciting that we arrived at similar principles for our solutions. Congratulations to your development team and me. :)
Regards. Per Perra
Quote from: Samuel on April 20, 2023, 09:11:25 PM...
We need to reveal in this forum that the Tormek innovation team has developed a similar invention based on the same principles as yours. The product is patented and closing in towards launch.
...
Guess I need to look at the patent page more often... ;)
Screenshot 2023-04-20 14.35.25.png
Screenshot 2023-04-20 14.35.48.png
Patent Link (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/085382620/publication/SE2250303A1?q=pn%3DSE2250303A1)
Wow! This is exciting!
Quote from: Perra on April 20, 2023, 10:37:59 PMThank you Samuel
I really hope I didn't cause problems for Tormek! I really had no idea you were working on a similar project. If I had known, I probably wouldn't have published anything before your launch.
I do this on a hobby level. I have no intentions to produce or market and sell my product on the market. Just a couple of copies for my friends. So it's no problem for me.
You are of course welcome to take part and use everything I have shown if it is something that can improve your products. I would only be proud if I can be of use to Tormek.
It is exciting that we arrived at similar principles for our solutions. Congratulations to your development team and me. :)
Regards. Per Perra
No problem at all Perra.
We really appreciate our fans and the creativity around our products.
Regards Samuel
Now that the new anglesetter has been mentioned by Samuel from Tormek and the drawing in the patent application has been shown by cbwx34, I feel free to stop keeping my test report a secret.
At the request of Tormek's CEO, I tested the new design of an angle-setter in December 2022 and wrote the attached report.
Self-centering knife jig ☑️
Knife Angle Setter ☑️
Knife Jig Pivot Adapter.... 😜
Quote from: Dutchman on April 21, 2023, 11:04:23 AMNow that the new anglesetter has been mentioned by Samuel from Tormek and the drawing in the patent application has been shown by cbwx34, I feel free to stop keeping my test report a secret.
At the request of Tormek's CEO, I tested the new design of an angle-setter in December 2022 and wrote the accompanying report.
An interesting report. (Probably should wait until I have one, but I'll ask questions anyway)...
Why does the USB have to be lowered into position?
Can you use it on the honing side (with an FVB?)
Where's that video? ;)
Per,
When I first posted the kenjig, I named it the "KS-150" (Knife Setting tool, 150mm length). Tormek nicely asked me to rename it, as it was not an authorized Tormek product. It was a reasonable request, so I renamed it. We are still buds.
I like your design. It seems very practical and is far more sophisticated than the old kenjig, which still works for its intended function.
Do not become discouraged. Neither of us has a profit motive, only to share with the community. We need that spirit. Carry on!
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on April 21, 2023, 03:19:23 PMDo not become discouraged. Neither of us has a profit motive, only to share with the community. We need that spirit. Carry on!
Ken
Hi Ken
Thanks for your comments.
I fully understand Tormek's actions. They must of course be careful about their patents and fine tools. Too bad they didn't check more often among all the posts we make, then maybe I would have received a signal earlier because I posted my prototypes gradually since a long time ago. But everything usually works out and we have been in contact and I am invited to Tormek for a visit.
I will give them a present. you probably know what... ;D
So if you also want a gift you must become my friend first.... ;)
/Perra
I guess that indeed checks the box for the knife angle setter, that's useful, it looks well engineered as always (and by the looks of it it is going to be co$tly). That being said, I think the calculator(or Dutchman's tables)/caliper method with USB-to-wheel distance measurement is going to remain my favorite one, because it is so quick. The 150-250mm means this could also be used to set the honing angle, but you'd have to change it each time... unless you get two of them.
I'm thinking maybe a raspberry pi nano (or similar), with a rotating knob, a joystick and a LCD display in a IP55 casing, could do the trick.
I would put the reversed-VUSB/built-in-FVB as well on the list of things that Tormek deems unnecessary until they make it.
I think Dutchman was an excellent choice to review the new prototype angle setting tool. His posted booklets on angle setting were the first and led to the whole movement of more controlled, accurate angle setting. None of us understands angle setting more than Dutchman.
I expect the new angle setting tool to be "co$tlier". It is far more sophisticated and precise than the Anglemaster. It will have a more limited buying pool of users willing to pay the extra cost. And, the research and development costs are incurred at today's more inflated cost of living. (As a side note, I had expected the new knife jig, the KJ-45, to be considerably more expensive for the samereasons. While wedon't like the elimination of the end stop adjustments, a more sophisticated jig would have been considerable co$tlier. (Have we priced Starrett quality machine tools or groceries lately?)
Ken
Perra, very impressive! You singlehandedly, and unknowingly, came up with the same tool that TORMEK was working on. One question about the function of this more precise angle setting tool. If I set it up to sharpen at 12dps on a 250mm wheel, can I then use it on the 215mm leather or composite honing wheel to accurately hone the same knife by just changing the wheel diameter setting?
Quote from: TireguyfromMA on April 26, 2023, 05:14:28 AMPerra, very impressive! You singlehandedly, and unknowingly, came up with the same tool that TORMEK was working on. One question about the function of this more precise angle setting tool. If I set it up to sharpen at 12dps on a 250mm wheel, can I then use it on the 215mm leather or composite honing wheel to accurately hone the same knife by just changing the wheel diameter setting?
Hi
Thanks for kind words!
Yes you can do that. Put the tool on the honing wheel and it adjusts the scale according to the diameter of the wheel by itself, just release the locking screw on the back and press down a little gently, then of course you have to adjust your usb support up or down so you get the same angle or whatever angle you want to use . The purpose of the tool is to be able to easily set the usb height on different wheel diameters with as few other adjustments as possible. If you have set the jig-projection length correctly, one time, from the beginning, you only need to adjust the usb height to show the angle you want. You have to do that yourself, set the usb height, for now. Perhaps an improvement - self-adjusting usb height ;D ;D
I have made a test model with a spring loaded wheel adjustment but that means I have to hold the tool down against the wheel while setting the usb height and it was too difficult to do all this without variations. So I use a locking screw on the wheel setting instead to avoid measurement errors. It also works well and easily. It only takes a few seconds to change the wheel size and I don't have to guess the diameter because that function is built into the tool.
Quote from: Perra on April 26, 2023, 11:35:22 AM... snip
that function is built into the tool.
and that's an additional feature that Tormek's new angle-adjuster lacks ;)
Any news when the TORMEK Angle Adjuster will be available?
Quote from: TireguyfromMA on June 17, 2023, 10:08:14 PMAny news when the TORMEK Angle Adjuster will be available?
This didn't instill confidence in my earlier answer (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,5311.msg38617.html#msg38617)... ??? :( ;)
Some thoughts after a while.
If you want to achieve a certain edge angle, you have to take into account that as soon as you start sharpening, all the basic values change because you remove material from the knife, therefore the angle will not be the one you think you set from the beginning. Regardless of the method you use for the setup.
How many of you usually take into account that the projection length changes while grinding?
If I am going to fix a worn knife, I can easily reduce the height of the knife by 1mm, this gives an angle error of approx. 0.6 degrees. I sometimes redo the setting with a new projection length before I fine tune the last few times to get the angle I want. Or I set an angle of 17 degrees on a worn knife when I want a finished result of 18 degrees when I'm done.
I have found that it is very quick to check and set new values with a tool like my "Knife Angle Setter" or perhaps Tormek's new jig. Just set a new projection length by, copy the knife+jig, to the setter and adjust the Usb height to the angle value you want. It takes no more than a couple of seconds! And it feels more hands on and that I have more control over the process than compare to other methods. The Setter becomes a more active part of the grinding process than my computer ever gone be. Sorry ThinkPad!
I have received feedback on my tool from several friends who have received a copy and so far the feedback I have received is very positive. Great fun! And that should be positive for Tormek's new jig as well, because our tools work on the same principles. Almost!
/Perra
Quote from: Perra on June 21, 2023, 12:53:47 PMSome thoughts after a while.
If you want to achieve a certain edge angle, you have to take into account that as soon as you start sharpening, all the basic values change because you remove material from the knife, therefore the angle will not be the one you think you set from the beginning. Regardless of the method you use for the setup.
How many of you usually take into account that the projection length changes while grinding?
If I am going to fix a worn knife, I can easily reduce the height of the knife by 1mm, this gives an angle error of approx. 0.6 degrees. I sometimes redo the setting with a new projection length before I fine tune the last few times to get the angle I want. Or I set an angle of 17 degrees on a worn knife when I want a finished result of 18 degrees when I'm done.
I have found that it is very quick to check and set new values with a tool like my "Knife Angle Setter" or perhaps Tormek's new jig. Just set a new projection length by, copy the knife+jig, to the setter and adjust the Usb height to the angle value you want. It takes no more than a couple of seconds! And it feels more hands on and that I have more control over the process than compare to other methods. The Setter becomes a more active part of the grinding process than my computer ever gone be. Sorry ThinkPad!
I have received feedback on my tool from several friends who have received a copy and so far the feedback I have received is very positive. Great fun! And that should be positive for Tormek's new jig as well, because our tools work on the same principles. Almost!
/Perra
The Projection Distance rarely changes in sharpening to any significance. The only time it does is if you're grinding out damage, or you incorrectly sharpen a
very dull knife, by grinding one side until a burr is formed, (creating a noticeable offset), then flipping the blade over. (You can of course alter the PD in other ways, for example over-grinding at a higher angle.) Most of this has come up before (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4089.0.html)...
I've said it before, but I think "accuracy" to fractions of a degree is really unnecessary. It was oversold when using a calculator first came up. The main goal of using a calculator, and now your tool, is to overcome the deficiencies of the AngleMaster. (Which after years of denial, Tormek has apparently now admitted to.) ::) ;)
One thing I do like about your device is the "immediate feedback"... you can see the angle you're sharpening at, vs. a calculator, where you have to "trust" that 'X' distance from the wheel (or casing) = the angle, if that makes sense. This probably adds to the... "feels more hands on" statement you made.
What is also really good about Per's angle setting tool is the confidence it gives in using with wheels of different diameters, for example from a CBN to the leather honing wheel and then maybe to a slightly larger than 250mm paper wheel on a different machine (there is wriggle room to go above 250mm).
So much simpler than inputting data with differing parameters into a calculator then fiddling about with callipers and adjusting USB accordingly.
And I totally agree with CBX, it feels much more satisfying to see that angle clearly on the scale than trusting that a measurement is right.
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 21, 2023, 04:21:55 PMThe Projection Distance rarely changes in sharpening to any significance. The only time it does is if you're grinding out damage, or you incorrectly sharpen a very dull knife, by grinding one side until a burr is formed, (creating a noticeable offset), then flipping the blade over. (You can of course alter the PD in other ways, for example over-grinding at a higher angle.)
Hi cb
Just wait until you see some of the knives I get to work with... you might change your mind. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 21, 2023, 04:21:55 PMThe main goal of using a calculator, and now your tool, is to overcome the deficiencies of the AngleMaster. (Which after years of denial, Tormek has apparently now admitted to.) ::) ;)
Is this really the case? Can you tell us where they have admitted this, please?
I would like to know if I am misusing it or expecting too much from it.
How inaccurate is it, really? and is it more inaccurate for knives or one sided bevels like chisels etc?
I would appreciate any thoughts/info
Danny
Quote from: Dan on June 21, 2023, 09:10:09 PMQuote from: cbwx34 on June 21, 2023, 04:21:55 PMThe main goal of using a calculator, and now your tool, is to overcome the deficiencies of the AngleMaster. (Which after years of denial, Tormek has apparently now admitted to.) ::) ;)
Is this really the case? Can you tell us where they have admitted this, please?
I would like to know if I am misusing it or expecting too much from it.
How inaccurate is it, really? and is it more inaccurate for knives or one sided bevels like chisels etc?
I would appreciate any thoughts/info
Danny
The biggest deficiency is that the AngleMaster doesn't account for blade taper from spine to edge. For example, see this thread (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3573). They ignored (or wouldn't admit it) as shown here (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3777). It can be several degrees depending on the taper.
It was (in my opinion) designed for chisels, so that issue isn't there. But there's still a question of how accurate/consistent it can be... just measure the same angle several times (even on a chisel) and the result can vary unless you're careful.
As for the "admission"...
NewTormekAngleAdjuster(480).jpg
;)
Dan,
I've used Per's angle jig and I can give it glowing comments.
What I sharpen most often are woodturning and wood carving tools. That is why I am such a strong advocate for the approach pioneered by the TTS-100. And this is the approach adopted by Sheang Han (Tournevis on the Tormek forum).
Sheang's jig, which I call the HanJig (https://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexJigs.html#HanJig (https://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexJigs.html#HanJig)), fits the few knives I sharpen quite well. I don't really sharpen thick knives, so I've not needed to get really into using the KJ-45: the SVM-45, -100, & -140 have always worked well for me (which goes to show how great the investment is with Tormek's products).
This same, 2-wheel approach is what drew me to Per's jig also. I know that I need to learn how to use the new KJ jigs at some point, I just did not want to use the WM-200 AngleMaster.
Per's jig is a real hit for me. I set the desired edge angle, and then sharpened my knife on a DF-250 diamond wheel using the KJ-45 according to the way Per's jig told me. I honed the edge using the 3-step approach: 1) CW-220, 2) paper wheel with 5 micron diamond paste (bench grinder), and 3) paper wheel with jewelers rouge.
I don't have a BESS, but the knife is as sharp as I've ever wanted it to be.
Per did not meet my expectations: the jig he created far exceeded them. He has set the bar very high for the new Tormek device, and I think that is great. Most importantly, he has made the KJ-45 a useful jig for me.
Thanks for the replies.
I think I get what you mean now ;)
"It was (in my opinion) designed for chisels, so that issue isn't there. But there's still a question of how accurate/consistent it can be... just measure the same angle several times (even on a chisel) and the result can vary unless you're careful."
How accurate/consistent is acceptable? I have not seen a spec to clarify this. If the desired bevel angle is 25°, would 26° or 25.5° be unacceptable? As a longtime chisel user, I find the Anglemaster more than accurate enough for chisels. A chisel is not a knife. We cannot assume a situation with knives automatically carries over to chisels.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on June 22, 2023, 12:13:54 AMHow accurate/consistent is acceptable? I have not seen a spec to clarify this. If the desired bevel angle is 25°, would 26° or 25.5° be unacceptable? As a longtime chisel user, I find the Anglemaster more than accurate enough for chisels. A chisel is not a knife. We cannot assume a situation with knives automatically carries over to chisels.
Ken
So... why'd you switch to the TTS-100 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4822.msg34560.html#msg34560)? ???
Quote from: Ken S on November 30, 2021, 11:42:29 AM...
I have a suggestion for testing that your support bar and grinding wheel are parallel. Attached is the link to the Tormek TTS-100. This is the tool I use to set up my chisels and plane blades. In my opinion, it is a more advanced tool than the Anglemaster. I consider the TTS-100 and SVD-186R to be Tormek's most advanced set up and jig combination. The two small revolving metal wheels make the TTS-100 compensate automatically for wheel wear. You can even switch back and forth between the T8 and the T4 with no adjustments. I don't know why Tormek never incorporated this innovation to chisels and plane blades. The metal wheels work better if you draw a spoke on each with a fine tipped marker.
...
I did this in 2010 and have not needed to use the Anglemaster since then to get consistent chisel and plane blade bevels.
...
Ken
For me with my chisels. I don't really measure/check the angle after sharpening.
To be honest, compared to my hand sharpening for eons, the results with the T8 are so good that it doesn't really make a huge difference if it is 25° or 28°.
Anyway, on any hardwood the chisels are already nowhere near so sharp after 5 minutes work so it is really somewhat 'academic'.
I generally only do my own and some friend's knives and I really don't have the inclination (pun intended ;D ) to get them at a particular degree. I normally follow the existing bevel. I am very happy with the results so for me it is just a bit too much to go into goniometers and the difference between a few degrees and then ideas of Bess scores etc..
Horses for courses :o
If there is an easy reliable gauge or jig to set up knife angles better then that is great. To me, the new angle setter does look at first glance somewhat complicated. Maybe it is much more accurate and takes a bit more learning to use it compared to the anglemaster and that may be useful for some people. It also may not be for everyone.
Danny
I use the TTS-100 with the a 3D printed Projection Jig (https://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexJigs.html#ProjJigTTS100) to sharpen my chisels. This makes using the SE-77 more manageable, and it makes the process much faster and easier, so I sharpen more often.
OK, I thought I should do some tests to see if I can learn something from all your comments.
This is for chisels, not knives. I know this is in the knife sharpening section but it is about angles and it seems to me to apply.
So cbwx34 (if it was you that suggested it, or was it Rich??) I wanted to try the method with the Calcapp to set the angle for chisels.
It took me a bit of time to work it out but it is pretty straightforward to use - the SE-77 section at least. Maybe one day I will try with knives.
I like the idea a lot. I also managed to reduce the wheel diameter setting for the honing wheel to get the same angle for honing and it worked perfectly.
So, I decided I wanted to get a 27° angle so I did two chisels with this method and another chisel with the WM-200 AngleMaster trying to get 27° too.
The results: trying my best to measure the distances carefully with vernier calipers for the calcapp, both chisels ended up at 30°!!....
I am not sure why this happened. Obviously, there is always possibility of human error involved here but I tried to be careful.
With the third chisel I followed the recommended method for the anglemaster to get 27° and this ended up at 29°!!
I measured the angles with a basic protractor and rulers. I havent got any more sophisticated way but it is fairly easy to see.
Not sure what to make of my results but at least I learned some things! :)
Danny
Quote from: Dan on June 22, 2023, 10:57:55 PMOK, I thought I should do some tests to see if I can learn something from all your comments.
This is for chisels, not knives. I know this is in the knife sharpening section but it is about angles and it seems to me to apply.
So cbwx34 (if it was you that suggested it, or was it Rich??) I wanted to try the method with the Calcapp to set the angle for chisels.
It took me a bit of time to work it out but it is pretty straightforward to use - the SE-77 section at least. Maybe one day I will try with knives.
I like the idea a lot. I also managed to reduce the wheel diameter setting for the honing wheel to get the same angle for honing and it worked perfectly.
So, I decided I wanted to get a 27° angle so I did two chisels with this method and another chisel with the WM-200 AngleMaster trying to get 27° too.
The results: trying my best to measure the distances carefully with vernier calipers for the calcapp, both chisels ended up at 30°!!....
I am not sure why this happened. Obviously, there is always possibility of human error involved here but I tried to be careful.
With the third chisel I followed the recommended method for the anglemaster to get 27° and this ended up at 29°!!
I measured the angles with a basic protractor and rulers. I havent got any more sophisticated way but it is fairly easy to see.
Not sure what to make of my results but at least I learned some things! :)
Danny
I'm not sure if it applies, but part of the issue may be this... whether you're using the AngleMaster or the calculator, the angle it measures is at the edge, but the overall angle is actually larger (since it's on a curved surface.) It's talked about in this thread... Setting Accurate Grinding Angle (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4441.0.html), and shown in this picture...
ELDEN-CHISEL_25_deg_rev1A (2).jpg
(from this thread: https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4063.msg28224.html#msg28224)... where users are sharpening on the Tormek, then trying to hone on a flat stone at the same angle. So if you're measuring the entire angle with a protractor, that could be the reason it doesn't match the sharpening angle. (It's more pronounced depending on the size of the chisel.)
OK , thanks for the reply. Lots of useful info in the links. I am not sure if if is that or not but I think I see what you mean.
In my case, yes, I am measuring the angle with a ruler over the top and bottom of the hollow grind so I suppose the real angle near the tip is less/lower anyway. I was wrongly assuming I should just try to measure it the same as a flat grind.
Although it is not possible for me to measure the angle just at the cutting edge (apex), it really means that the achieved results with both methods is actually pretty close to the intended 27° :D ;D
That is very useful to know. Thanks for your help.
Danny
The way I understand Perra's jig, it could also be used to adjust the projection distance for a given angle, right ?
You set the first knife's projection distance, adjust wheel size, then USB height to match the angle, then use the jig as a stop to set the projection distance ?
Quote from: tgbto on June 30, 2023, 04:55:12 PMThe way I understand Perra's jig, it could also be used to adjust the projection distance for a given angle, right ?
You set the first knife's projection distance, adjust wheel size, then USB height to match the angle, then use the jig as a stop to set the projection distance ?
Hi
Correct👍😊
Quote from: Perra on July 01, 2023, 12:30:14 PMQuote from: tgbto on June 30, 2023, 04:55:12 PMThe way I understand Perra's jig, it could also be used to adjust the projection distance for a given angle, right ?
You set the first knife's projection distance, adjust wheel size, then USB height to match the angle, then use the jig as a stop to set the projection distance ?
I do not disagree with this. However, it seems more steps than are necessary.
Especially with the diamond wheels, the wheel diameter should remain constant, not only with the same wheel, but also with other diamond wheels by the same manufacturer. Even with matrix wheels (SG, SB, and SJ) wheel wear is gradual. Measuring the diameter before eating up the first knife should be all that is necessary during a sharpening session. I would check wheel diameter first.
Watching the Knife Grinders videos, 140mm was a very common Projection. Even with the limited Projection range adjustment of the KJ-45, all knives of width between 45 and 50 mm (as an example) should be able to be set to a common Projection without needing individual measurement. In this scenario, with a common angle and Projection, the Distance should also remain constant. I sharpen my knives to 15degrees per side. 15 and perhaps 12° should suffice for most knives.
Some knives may require more measurement; however, the majority of usual knives should fall within these parameters.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on July 02, 2023, 05:56:26 AMQuote from: tgbto on June 30, 2023, 04:55:12 PMThe way I understand Perra's jig, it could also be used to adjust the projection distance for a given angle, right ?
You set the first knife's projection distance, adjust wheel size, then USB height to match the angle, then use the jig as a stop to set the projection distance ?
I do not disagree with this. However, it seems more steps than are necessary.
Especially with the diamond wheels, the wheel diameter should remain constant, not only with the same wheel, but also with other diamond wheels by the same manufacturer. Even with matrix wheels (SG, SB, and SJ) wheel wear is gradual. Measuring the diameter before eating up the first knife should be all that is necessary during a sharpening session. I would check wheel diameter first.
Watching the Knife Grinders videos, 140mm was a very common Projection. Even with the limited Projection range adjustment of the KJ-45, all knives of width between 45 and 50 mm (as an example) should be able to be set to a common Projection without needing individual measurement. In this scenario, with a common angle and Projection, the Distance should also remain constant. I sharpen my knives to 15degrees per side. 15 and perhaps 12° should suffice for most knives.
Some knives may require more measurement; however, the majority of usual knives should fall within these parameters.
Ken
That's what they're doing... setting everything up with the first knife, then using that setup to set the Projection Distance of the subsequent knives.
CB,
I must have inadvertently overlooked that. I remember the Knife Grinders videos showing knife set ups. I always thought the set up was ideal for one knife, but missing the link that the entire set up procedure was not necessary for multiple knives.
I understand that as a teaching video, this approach makes sense.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on July 02, 2023, 11:08:11 PMCB,
I must have inadvertently overlooked that. I remember the Knife Grinders videos showing knife set ups. I always thought the set up was ideal for one knife, but missing the link that the entire set up procedure was not necessary for multiple knives.
I understand that as a teaching video, this approach makes sense.
Ken
I don't mean the video, but what they're doing with Perra's Jig.
And it can be done with Tormek's new jig too. Use to set a preset projection length.
It simplifies and speeds up the process when you want the same angle on several knives in a row during sharpening. It is interesting that the jig can be used in several different ways, once you have learned the function and handling it is surprisingly quick to work with. And no computers, calipers or tables needed!
Anyone have any idea if or when the new Tormek knife jig will be available to buy?
Just for Perra.. Are you making your jig for sale to others??
It does seem just too complicated for me to make.
It would be useful for me (and maybe for others) to know.
Not sure yet if I really need to get one for myself. I only really use the Tormek for my own tools and knives and for some of my neighbours' knives. I am still getting to grips with trying to use the Calcapp from cbwx34. I am not sure I have it all worked out but it seems pretty straightforward.
In general, I am someone who finds it a lot easier to learn from a demo than a book! My brain just glazes over with all the maths based methods some people here use.
Danny
Dan,
In case you might have overlooked this reply from the first page of this topic, here it is:
:)
Quote from: Samuel on April 20, 2023, 09:11:25 PMGreat minds think alike :)
Congratulations on a fine solution Perra, very impressive and detailed work.
We need to reveal in this forum that the Tormek innovation team has developed a similar invention based on the same principles as yours. The product is patented and closing in towards launch.
We reveal this only with the well meaning intention to prevent someone from investing time and money into a product unable to be put to market due to IP rights.
Thank you Perra for your profound engagement. We feel fortunate to have such dedicated users.
Regards
Samuel Stenhem
CEO Tormek.
I have no inside information as to when the new patented Tormek knife setting jig will be available for purchase. However, I will be surprised if the availability date is before this fall.
Like any other business, Tormek must protect its investment in research and development with patents. While we are waiting, we have several options. In this Covid era, Tormek has provided us with almost two dozen in depth instructional videos. These are outstanding learning tools, and are freely available at no cost.
One can go far using only the marker method.
I can appreciate your "glazed over" frustration with learning the math oriented programs. I have been there and have experienced those same frustrations. I started developing a method of automating set up for woodworking chisels and plane blades in 2010 using a slightly modified TTS-100. (I still use that method.) At the time, I was not sharpening knives.
When Dutchman posted his grinding angle research in 2014, I could see a great potential in knife setting. With this great potential, I also felt great frustration. My last training in math was in high school back in 1968, literally predating the Tormek. Even with Dutchman's well presented work as a guide, dusting off my math skills was quite laborious. After much frustration, the process started to make sense. Dutchman's tables became the basis of my kenjig. While less sophisticated than today's computer based programs and adjustable jigs, I still believe the kenjig is the fastest, most easily repeatable method for setting knife angles.
My advice to you is that you can do anything which I can do. Give yourself some quiet time for focused learning. Be prepared to get through a learning curve. Simplify. I generally sharpen all my knives at 15 degrees per side. I can easily modify this if I want; however, 15° has served me well.
Spend some quiet study time learning Calcapp. We presently have much easier learning tools that I had available years ago. CB has done an excellent job of creating a user friendly program.
Once you understand the theory of setting bevel angles, you will be amazed with how quickly you grasp new ideas.
Keep us posted.
Ken
Quote from: Dan on July 04, 2023, 12:25:50 PM...I am still getting to grips with trying to use the Calcapp from cbwx34. I am not sure I have it all worked out but it seems pretty straightforward.
In general, I am someone who finds it a lot easier to learn from a demo than a book! My brain just glazes over with all the maths based methods some people here use.
Danny
Don't worry about "the math". Think of it as little more than measuring to build something, and Calcapp is really nothing more than a simple calculator.. not a computer program that needs study. The "math" was overemphasized in the early days... mainly cause we were just figuring all this out. (And accuracy was
way over stressed.)
For a knife you can start with the "Original" calculator in Calcapp. (Everything else is pretty much a spinoff from that.) And don't worry about "decimal point" accuracy. Measuring to the nearest mm with a ruler is more than sufficient. A quick wheel measurement (you can even use the scale printed on the Tormek), measurement from the front of the Blade Stop to the knife edge (Projection Distance), and decide what angle you want to sharpen at, is all that's needed.
I think the only problem some have had is measuring to the wheel following an imaginary line... the idea with a rubber band is probably the best way to see what's needed...
MeasuringToStoneRubberBandGuide.jpg
(Sorry, can't find the reference link right now for credit.)... and after a few tries, this guide can be eliminated. (Consistency is key.)
Thanks for the replies.
I am a professional craftsman and used to making/creating things with lots of measuring etc. No worries.. ;)
Me and Maths divorced along time ago. Just after I was introduced to calculus when at the time my main interest was fashioning things out of wood ;D
Using the calcapp for my chisels and planes was excellent - simple and quick after a little working out. Knives, I am working on!
Thanks again,
Danny
I agree 100% with @cbwx34 : calcapp and the like (including Ducthman's tables) don't require any specific knowledge aside from understanding what to enter in what input box. They are even simpler (and more accurate) if you use USB to wheel measurements.
As for the worth of the Tormek patent on their future tool, we'll have to see how innovative it is. I think Perra's way of including wheel diameter measurement in their tool is a novelty, but resting the tool on the stone then adjusting the USB to set the sharpening angle might not be where innovation lies.
Anyone hear anything new on a Tormek version of this? Will they be releasing it?
I do not know when the new Tormek angle setting jig will be for sale. I do know that working prototypes had been made before the end of August 2023 when I visited Tormek. Part of my visit included a meeting of the Design Team. (Per was also part of that meeting.
We presently have all the necessary tools to set all of the functions with more than enough accuracy. Being almost fifty years away from my high school math classes when Dutchman introduced his tables, With considerable effort, I was able to understand them and become fluent with them. With some focused study, CB's Calcapp in within understandability by any of us. It requires just a reasonable effort more than spoon feeding. Having seen the new jig demonstrated, I will be switching to it for at least most of my work. However, I can see where some will prefer staying with programs like Calcapp instead of purchasing a the new angle setting jig. Both paths will get the job done.
Ken
Quote from: CopperFish on March 11, 2024, 08:32:50 PMAnyone hear anything new on a Tormek version of this? Will they be releasing it?
At the invitation of Håkan Persson, Tormek's CEO at the time, I tested the 'new' anglesetter. See the report at https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?msg=38191 (https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?msg=38191)
My verdict was not overwhelmingly positive. Furthermore, Håkan has since stepped down as CEO and has probably lost his interest in it.
In addition, and this is probably the most important thing, Perra has created a better design as presented in this thread.
That's why I think it's more likely. that Perra's design will be adopted and produced.
I can confirm, as Ken says, that I have been in contact with Tormek and presented my tool and my thoughts on how to implement some of my theories into their own tuning tool. It is a work in progress and my understanding is that there may be a release in the near future.
I think Tormek's variant, with some improvements, could be a better option than my tool and I never had any intention of starting any series production of my tool anyway. Call myself a hobby inventor! And am happy when I have succeeded with an idea, that's enough for me!
As for my "Black Edition", I have no production of it and have no plans to produce any more, right now! Instead I have a new small project going on. We'll see if I can show it off later.