Is there still a wire burr at 200 Bess?

[ABall]

Hi folks, so its been a few years but I've got back into sharpening with my T8. Partly due to the Ks-123 but partly due to moving house and finally getting a workshop setup.
To cut a long story short, I purchased a PT50A and its killing me! It now appears I have all the gear and no idea! I have everything I need to get down to 50 Bess and I cant get below 160 and that's on a clip not the manual media. I was an avid follower of Vadim and have been using his techniques for years but never tested my knives on a Bess.
Just to be clear, I'm not chasing 50 Bess, I'm not chasing anything except proof of wire burr removal so I ask if its possible I've done it with a Bess score of 200-240? I've lost my scope in the move so I've been looking through a loupe and the edge looks clean, please see my pics, however, after getting down to 165 on a test clip, I cut some cardboard and it jumped to 205, this would suggest a burr remains after everything I've learned over the years? The knife is a Global, I've apexed it on CBN, SG, SB, ( finished it on SJ, tried grading on the SG, honed on Composit, Felt with diamonds and leather loaded with chromium oxide, (felt at various degrees and leather at original angle) the latter after diamonds yielded sub 200. Sorry the pics aren't great, I think my old S9+ was better at Macro than this S23U. I've tried .5 to 2.5 degrees increases on honing, I use a FVB. I have spent a lot of time honing, all this at 15 degrees but i did try 12, the test media dented the edge at 12 but I've been at this for days so it probably wasn't honed properly.
What do you guys think? I haven't tried any other knives, this one belongs to a friend who puts them in the dishwasher! I have my own Globals but I've been focussed on getting this knife bellow 100 Bess before I move on to his others and then mine. Just to reiterate, I'm only looking for low Bess as Vadim always said over 100 was an indication of the wire burr remaining.

Edit: best reading is 148 on a clip using leather and green paste at 2.5 degrees higher.

[Sir Amwell]

Genuine Global knives have good steel and can be sharpened under 100 Bess quite easily. I do this on a T8 up to 1000 CBN wheel at 15 dps. Then hone at +0.5 degrees on a WSKO blade attachment with leather belt and Tormek honing compound, followed by exact on a leather belt with 5 micron diamond compound. Repeatable.
I have had a few 'Globals' which refused to respond to this protocol and left me wondering......
Think you may have a knockoff, fake, counterfeit call it what you will.
Hope your friend didn't pay too much for his 'Global'?

[Sir Amwell]

And to answer your question directly, I recall that Vadim maintained that anything over 120 Bess indicates the presence of a burr in some form be it wire, foil residual,or the root...

[ABall]

And to answer your question directly, I recall that Vadim maintained that anything over 120 Bess indicates the presence of a burr in some form be it wire, foil residual,or the root...

Yes this is why I have been so obsessed with getting a lower score.

I have had a few 'Globals' which refused to respond to this protocol and left me wondering......
Think you may have a knockoff, fake, counterfeit call it what you will.
Hope your friend didn't pay too much for his 'Global'?

Thanks for the replies, my friend was given a full set of globals as a wedding gift and they are a few years old now so no he didnt pay too much for them.  I will have to try a couple of mine and stop trying to improve the first one.

[Royale]

Looking at your images, the bevel looks a bit rough for a blade that went through the SJ grindstone.

It seems like the gap between your grindstone grit size may be a bit wide. The last knife I sharpened was an Ikea 365+ knife (soft X50CrMov15 steel) My second last grindstone was the DE-250 (1200G) followed by the SJ-250 (4000G), then honed on the LA-220. I tested on my PT50A and got about 108.

My workflow has the knife go through 360G, 600G, 1200G, and sometimes 4000G. I have no insight into your CBN grindstone, but from what you wrote, it seems like you spent more time on the much higher grit (honing). I think it would help a lot if you used a 1000+ grit grindstone somewhere in your workflow.

[ABall]

Looking at your images, the bevel looks a bit rough for a blade that went through the SJ grindstone.

It seems like the gap between your grindstone grit size may be a bit wide. The last knife I sharpened was an Ikea 365+ knife (soft X50CrMov15 steel) My second last grindstone was the DE-250 (1200G) followed by the SJ-250 (4000G), then honed on the LA-220. I tested on my PT50A and got about 108.

My workflow has the knife go through 360G, 600G, 1200G, and sometimes 4000G. I have no insight into your CBN grindstone, but from what you wrote, it seems like you spent more time on the much higher grit (honing). I think it would help a lot if you used a 1000+ grit grindstone somewhere in your workflow.

Thanks Royale, your right the pic wasnt taken after the SJ, I went back and forth trying lots of combinations so lost track. I have 160/400 CBN, I gradethe SG with a diamond plate but I am considdering getting a 1000G diamond or CBN. My 160 has a just revealed a flaw that is damaging the edge so I added the SB a couple of days ago. I need to move my workshop around as ive just taken delivery of the Tormek bench, atm im sharpening at almost chin height which is proving to be annoying. Im hoping to get it sorted tonight and try another knife. I was hoping to replicate Vadims procedure of going from 160 CBN or SG straight to composite finnished on felt but I cant get the results he got. He was an expert for sure.

[BPalv]

Hi folks, so its been a few years but I've got back into sharpening with my T8. Partly due to the Ks-123 but partly due to moving house and finally getting a workshop setup.
To cut a long story short, I purchased a PT50A and its killing me! It now appears I have all the gear and no idea! I have everything I need to get down to 50 Bess and I cant get below 160 and that's on a clip not the manual media. I was an avid follower of Vadim and have been using his techniques for years but never tested my knives on a Bess.
Just to be clear, I'm not chasing 50 Bess, I'm not chasing anything except proof of wire burr removal so I ask if its possible I've done it with a Bess score of 200-240? I've lost my scope in the move so I've been looking through a loupe and the edge looks clean, please see my pics, however, after getting down to 165 on a test clip, I cut some cardboard and it jumped to 205, this would suggest a burr remains after everything I've learned over the years? The knife is a Global, I've apexed it on CBN, SG, SB, ( finished it on SJ, tried grading on the SG, honed on Composit, Felt with diamonds and leather loaded with chromium oxide, (felt at various degrees and leather at original angle) the latter after diamonds yielded sub 200. Sorry the pics aren't great, I think my old S9+ was better at Macro than this S23U. I've tried .5 to 2.5 degrees increases on honing, I use a FVB. I have spent a lot of time honing, all this at 15 degrees but i did try 12, the test media dented the edge at 12 but I've been at this for days so it probably wasn't honed properly.
What do you guys think? I haven't tried any other knives, this one belongs to a friend who puts them in the dishwasher! I have my own Globals but I've been focussed on getting this knife bellow 100 Bess before I move on to his others and then mine. Just to reiterate, I'm only looking for low Bess as Vadim always said over 100 was an indication of the wire burr remaining.

Edit: best reading is 148 on a clip using leather and green paste at 2.5 degrees higher.

The sub 50 journey... yes it can be done, multiple ways.
I use the following process for sub 100 scores.  You will need a BESS tester, a quality set of calipers, a Tormek or knockoff (You may drive yourself crazy with the wide range of tolerances on those machines though) a second Tormek honing wheel, PA-70 and a 1mu diamond emulsion (some work, some don't, I use DMT brand).  I also use a microscope $29 on Amazon, 1000 magnification if an edge is suspect.

-I Grind to 15 Degrees on kitchen knives unless otherwise dictated (Shuns 16 degrees etc.).
Finish your grind on CBN or Diamond (Not sure if the stone will do this yet as this process is fairly new to me and I haven't tested yet).  Vadim say's it won't work with the stone, I will test at some point as other parts of his methods have work arounds.  I can say this works with 600 and 1000 CBN grinds.  Vadim stated it works with diamonds as well.

-After completing your grind with lighter passes to minimize the Burr you will need to use the multi jig to set up the Tormek honing wheel loaded with PA-70.  Set the universal bar so your angle is 15.4.  (I am currently testing +.5)

-Make two to three passes with medium pressure on the burrless side then one or two more pass on both sides and examine.  At this point there should be almost no burr.

-Make sure to remove all PA-70 from your work piece so you don't contaminate your next wheel.

-Test your edge, you should be anywhere from 100 to 500 depending on the burr.  if your still around 500 make another pass or two on the PA-70.

-Put on the second honing wheel loaded with 1mu diamonds... some work, some don't... (I'm using an emulsion from DMT).
Make two extremely light passes with the 1um diamonds.

-Make one extremely light pass on both sides and test.  With any luck you should be sub 100.

-If your score is not where you want it you can continue to use the 1mu wheel with very light pressure.  You do not want to round the apex.

This process has yielded edges as low as 30 but typically 60 to 80.  However, if you get readings as low as 50 or below, check your edge with a microscope and look for a burr or a foil edge.  Repeated very light passes do further refine the edge and can increase sharpness.

Vadim stated that the step required to remove the burr required a felt or paper wheel at +2 degrees (1.6 or others).  This process does remove the burr but it also polishes the edge. 

The 1mu wheel should clean up the burr without polishing the teeth away with repeated passes if the burr is stubborn.  I have had success raising the honing wheels to +.5 without rounding the apex. (with a light touch).

Typically, if this process is followed you will see edges in the 60 to 80 range. 


You can use the paper wheels and achieve the same results with a polished edge (6mu, then 1mu... .25 if you want). Slow passes and pressure create a lot of heat!
(Before using paper wheels use sand paper to make them as round with a smooth edge as you can, it will pay off later).

These processes seem to be as much technique as equipment... a light touch is your friend.
Al

[ABall]

Just did a VERY quick sharpen on one of my Amazon Shanzu knives, just SG and LA-220 with chromium oxide, 130 bess without increasing the honing angle. I think the Global knife is toast. Maybe the dishwasher over many years has affected it, I know it kills the looks but is it possible its affected the steel? I will continue..

[John Hancock Sr]

Been sharpened on a fast grinder too many times? Lost its temper?

[ABall]

This could be it, they used to have their knives sharpened by a person in dubai who was mobile. I dont know what equipment he used though.

[Ken S]

There are too many unknown variables, as well as at least one known knife killer, the dishwasher. You need to educate the knife owner. Ban the use of the destructive dishwasher. If the knife has lost its temper due to improper sharpening, start over with a new knife and insist on Tormek sharpening. If you can't control this, nicely suggest they find another sharpener.

Ken

[ABall]

There are too many unknown variables, as well as at least one known knife killer, the dishwasher. You need to educate the knife owner. Ban the use of the destructive dishwasher. If the knife has lost its temper due to improper sharpening, start over with a new knife and insist on Tormek sharpening. If you can't control this, nicely suggest they find another sharpener.

Ken

Thanks Ken, Im the new sharpener,  I told them not to put them in the dishwasher but they have had many years of abuse, at least they have ditched the tungston sharpener for a global one. Im going to see if the rest perform the same.

[Ken S]

I do not foresee a stellar outcome with these knives. I hope you are being well compensated for your efforts.

Ken

[ABall]

Im actually doing them for free,    I regret buying the Bess tester now, ok, not too much, Ive done one of my Globals tonight and while its way better than theirs, its still not bellow 120, (Actually hit 120 with a little manual stropping) 'ignorance is bliss' springs to mind   Im the sort of person that wont be happy until that burr is completely removed, hense the title. One thing to note, even with my glasses on, going from a brand new SB to a 240mm SG, the KS-123 isnt perfect, or my eyesight isnt, I guess this advocates the use of software and measuring, damn.

[Ken S]

Im actually doing them for free,    I regret buying the Bess tester now, ok, not too much, Ive done one of my Globals tonight and while its way better than theirs, its still not bellow 120, (Actually hit 120 with a little manual stropping) 'ignorance is bliss' springs to mind   Im the sort of person that wont be happy until that burr is completely removed, hense the title. One thing to note, even with my glasses on, going from a brand new SB to a 240mm SG, the KS-123 isnt perfect, or my eyesight isnt, I guess this advocates the use of software and measuring, damn.

Alan,

I do not believe that your purchase of the PT-50A was a mistake. In fact, I think returning or selling it would be short sighted if you are serious about mastering knife sharpening. I knew the late Mike Brubacher of the Brubacher Edge Sharpening System through email for many years. Like Vadim, Mike tragic early passing was a loss to the sharpening community.

This isone of my favorite KnifeGrinders videos. It shows what an experienced sharpener like Vadim could do with the basic Tormek equipment and technique. He sharpened a knife at 12°per side to BESS 75. If Vadim could do that, I have no doubt that you could match that once your skill and experience level matches his. Here is a link:

https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=iRCTFcUxATXu8N-S

I don't recall your sharpening angle. That effects BESS scores.

The highly experienced Tormek Design Committee spent years designing and perfecting the KS-123. It's fine if you prefer software and measuring. I do suggest you spent more time evaluating the KS-123 before making an informed decision about it. i encourage you to stay the course and keep us posted.

Ken