Which FVB design to use to link it to good software

[HedgeStar]

Doing some searches, a few people have made a FVB and some have bought some from KG. 

I see the inspirational and unfortunately late Wootz even made one in wood. 

I keen to make one for myself, unless there are some readily available in the UK.

Which design is worth copying/following?  It seems a block of alloy the same overall size as the XB100 base is a good start and 25mm thick and horizontal bars centres fixed at 15mm down from the top of the XM100.  Is this the best one to copy and it is the same one that KG used to sell?  I see one helpful member on here cbwx34 has some software linked in his signature.  Is one of those pieces of software better to use and linked with a particular FVB design?

[Sir Amwell]

CBX will know more and I'm sure will answer your question. From what I understand if you are to use a 'bar to stone' measurement to determine your honing or grinding angle then the form of FVB becomes slightly irrelevant?
CBX's calcapp will do this really well and is available by tapping on the QR code below his name.

[cbwx34]

Doing some searches, a few people have made a FVB and some have bought some from KG. 

I see the inspirational and unfortunately late Wootz even made one in wood. 

I keen to make one for myself, unless there are some readily available in the UK.

Which design is worth copying/following?  It seems a block of alloy the same overall size as the XB100 base is a good start and 25mm thick and horizontal bars centres fixed at 15mm down from the top of the XM100.  Is this the best one to copy and it is the same one that KG used to sell?  I see one helpful member on here cbwx34 has some software linked in his signature.  Is one of those pieces of software better to use and linked with a particular FVB design?

Good questions!  Here's more info than you probably wanted....

The software is basically divided into two "camps"... you can measure directly to the wheel, or measure to the casing (or in this case, to the top of the FVB).  Almost all come from the same work, done by forum member "Dutchman".

If you measure directly to the wheel, it doesn't matter what dimensions you use to build your FVB.

If you measure to the top of the FVB, it kinda matters.  Some of the software, like Knifegrinder's (and another maker, SchleifJunkies) depend on the FVB being built to specific measurements Their software is tied to their FVB's measurements.  (I wouldn't use either one if you build your own.)  You also have provide additional measurements to set it up. 

But, there are programs out there that allow you to input your own measurements:  the dimensions of your build, etc.  The "top of the line" if you have access to Excel, is TormekCalc3.  But, there are others, (the 2nd link in my signature has more info).

For building your own, if you haven't run across it yet, THIS THREAD has a lot of info.

Personally, I like measuring to the wheel, (which is why I made Calcapp available).  It's easy and gives you more freedom (and no measurements are needed to set it up).  And it's web based, so it runs on just about anything.

p.s. Although not in the UK, forum member Rich Colvin makes an FVB you can find it HERE, if you decide not to make your own.

[dankeelz]

Hi cbwx34, You are obviously a very knowledgeable person. Maybe you could possibly answer this for me. I recently purchased a FVB from Rich at Colvin tools after learning of Vadims sad passing. Do you, or somebody else happen to know the distance Vadim has on his "EXTENDED MARK" so that I may put a mark on my new FVB?
Regards
Dan Williams

[cbwx34]

Hi cbwx34, You are obviously a very knowledgeable person. Maybe you could possibly answer this for me. I recently purchased a FVB from Rich at Colvin tools after learning of Vadims sad passing. Do you, or somebody else happen to know the distance Vadim has on his "EXTENDED MARK" so that I may put a mark on my new FVB?
Regards
Dan Williams

Dutchman, Jan, jvh, and few others are the smart ones... I'm just a sponge trying to absorb/(steal?) their knowledge.

I'll tell you the answer (it's 85mm), but I also have to say it should be a meaningless measurement to use on any other FVB.  It was a measurement for Knifegrinder's software, and you can't use his software with Rich's FVB.  (But maybe you're using it for something else?)

[dankeelz]

Thank you. Yes I thought that would be the case. It is really just a starting point for something I am working on.
Dan.

[Ken S]

Have you tried using the "ad hoc" option on the KG FVB software?

Ken

[cbwx34]

Have you tried using the "ad hoc" option on the KG FVB software?

Ken

The vertical measurements/dimensions are also different.

[dankeelz]

Hi Ken. I have tried to use Vadims software but unless you have purchased his FVB, which sadly I cannot do now, it doesn;t work. Apparently each FVB has a PIN that needs to be entered prior to use. The more I delve into this field of knife sharpening the more I realize what a HUGE loss Vadim is. Sad as that is, I WILL PURSUE and continue to try and learn more.
    Luckily we have people such as you to help us poor novices out,. Even as painful and annoying as we are.
Regards
Dan
NORFOLK ISLAND

[Dutchman]

The essential distance to set for the sharpening angle is between the support and the stone. I really don't understand why frantic efforts are being made to eventually use software that takes a different approach.
What is the big advantage?
Moreover, cbwx34's Calcapp calculator is a functional and extremely simple app that offers a good approach.

[RickKrung]

The essential distance to set for the sharpening angle is between the support and the stone. I really don't understand why frantic efforts are being made to eventually use software that takes a different approach.
What is the big advantage?
Moreover, cbwx34's Calcapp calculator is a functional and extremely simple app that offers a good approach.

I agree completely.  Initially, I was an avid user of the angle calculators that used all those measured distances.  I do not recall what made me take a serious look at using just the distance from the support bar to the grinding wheel surface, but I'm glad I did.  I think there is no advantage to the use of the approach of using all those measurements, rather, I think there is substantial disadvantage, given error accumulation and uncertainties in how difficult it is to accurately make many of those measurements.  I also very much like not having to even think about how the FVB is set, because it is irrelevant.  CB has been extremely consistent over the years and I thank him for maintaining his apps that provide the distance between the USB and stone.  I use his GoCalc app on my iPhone rather than the Calcapp app, just a matter of preference.   

Rick

[3D Anvil]

Funny, I've gone in the opposite direction.  I started out measuring the distance to the stone, but now I measure the distance to the base.  Both work fine, but I think the latter is more precise as it doesn't require aiming the measuring device at the center of the stone.  To get that stone center alignment, I always ended up either squatting down or kneeling. 

Either way, I still use cb's app, which is very much appreciated.

[Sir Amwell]

Agree with 3D Anvil. I use the calcapp to get bar to stone measurement. I then measure this as accurately and consistently as possible. Then I measure the bar to machine housing and make a note of jig protrusion and intended angle, stone diameter and record that measurement. I find it much easier to set bar to housing measurement for future runs.

[WimSpi]

I have used both the KG software and the TormekCalc and also tested to measure on the FVB. For this I took very accurate measurements, with also accurate large squere, with a guaranteed 90 degree angle.
I have also sharpened a knife on those values based on the settings I found.

In the end I find measuring the USB directly on the wheel the most accurate method.  This can be done with the TormekCalc, but also with the tool of cbwx34. The results of the calculation are the same.

This measurement is:
- Accurate, because you are least affected by possible multiple measurement deviations, which you have to set. This includes not only distance measurements, but also 90-degree angles.

- Simple, because it does not matter which FVB you use. Only the distance to the wheel counts.

I did adapt the depth gauge slightly, to hit the wheel at the right place. See photo's.

[Ken S]

Wim,

Bravo! You are on the right track. I have never understood the reasoning for using the frame as the measuring reference point instead of measuring directly from the wheel. Guided by Dutchman's grinding angles booklet, I have used Dutchman's direct to the wheel method for eight years with my kenjig. No compensation is needed when switching from the T7 to the T8. Using Dutchman's tables with diameter changes, the direct measuring with kenjig works with no modification with the T4.

Borrowing Wim's depth gage idea, the kenjig could be modified to eliminate the need to purchase a depth gage. Shorten the slot to around one inch. Mark the kenjig with the Distance. You will need to make up several kenjigs with different Distances.

With the KJ-45, there is easily a range of 10mm. Using CB's Calcapp, enter Projection values from your widest to your narrowest knives. Note these values and use them to make up kenjigs. These kenjigs will be gage blocks, having the same measurement year in and year out with no need of resetting. The Projection could be adjusted match one of the kenjig Distances.

Kenjig instructions are posted on Rich Colvin's Sharpening Handbook.

Ken