Do I need the KJ-140?

[Ken S]

I purchased my SVM-140 shortly after I purchased my T7 in 2009. I did not use it until I incorporated it into my kenjig program. I used the SVM-45 with the SVM-00 for paring knives; an out of production SVM-100 for slicing knives; and my SVM-140 for chef's knives. This essentially eliminated almost all need to adjust the jigs.

I have never used my SVM-140 as intended.

Will I ever use my KJ-140? I think so. All of the self centering attention seems to be focused on correction for thick knives. According to the Wootz video on centering, the SVM-140 is optimized for knives 3mm thick. (This seems very thick for a "thin knife" jig.) The KJ-140 automatically self centers for thin knives, a notable improvement. I don't believe I will have much need for this feature; however, the jig is not expensive and makes quick work of centering thin longer knives when needed.

Ken

[RickKrung]

I purchased my SVM-140 shortly after I purchased my T7 in 2009. I did not use it until I incorporated it into my kenjig program. I used the SVM-45 with the SVM-00 for paring knives; an out of production SVM-100 for slicing knives; and my SVM-140 for chef's knives. This essentially eliminated almost all need to adjust the jigs.

I have never used my SVM-140 as intended.

Will I ever use my KJ-140? I think so. All of the self centering attention seems to be focused on correction for thick knives. According to the Wootz video on centering, the SVM-140 is optimized for knives 3mm thick. (This seems very thick for a "thin knife" jig.) The KJ-140 automatically self centers for thin knives, a notable improvement. I don't believe I will have much need for this feature; however, the jig is not expensive and makes quick work of centering thin longer knives when needed.

Ken

I think you would be just fine without the KJ-140, in the context of the "thin" knives, since they are the ones both the SVM and KJ -140 jigs are aimed at. 

3mm is about 0.118".  That is actually fairly thick for a "thin" knife.  A very large number of the knives I've come across are 0.100" (2.54mm) and less.  I am probably one of the few, if not the only one, who has modified several of my SVM-45s in the manner that Wootz did and described on his web site and in one of his video, by milling away either 0.5 or 1.0mm from the fixed jaws so that shims can be used to center the blade.  That was more targeted at blades THICKER than 2.5-3mm, but does not preclude using those modified jigs for thinner blades.  I do it all the time, every time I work on more than a couple knives.

I worked up a shim reference table, showing how think of a shim is needed for each .005" of blade thickness.  (Attached below as a PDF file as well.)


I also shortened a set of stainless steel feeler gauges (by about 1/2) so they fit the SVM-45 jigs better and keep that set and a full sized set on snap rings for easy selection and access when setting up blades.  I only need the full-sized shims when using the -140 jigs but do use them when the blades are long enough that the length of the shims does not interfere with sharpening.  I am certain I posted on this at the time. 

Up to a thickness of 0.180" (~4.5mm), more than half of the blades require shimming regardless of whether the jig has been modified or not.  Shim thicknesses range from 0.000" in an unmodified jig for a 0.100" thick blade (either -45 or -140) to 0.075" for a 0.030" thick blade in a jig modified by removing 1.0mm. From my shim table, you can see that it is fully usable for the unmodified -140 jigs up to a bit over .0100" (to 3.0mm if one uses Wootz's number). 

Wootz's implementation of the jig modification is a most elegant solution to the very old issue of asymmetric bevels and in my opinion and use, negates the slightest need for the new compromised self-centering jig.  It is a shame it hasn't seen more widespread use. 

Rick

[cbwx34]

...
Wootz's implementation of the jig modification is a most elegant solution to the very old issue of asymmetric bevels and in my opinion and use, negates the slightest need for the new compromised self-centering jig.  It is a shame it hasn't seen more widespread use. 

Rick

I find it weird that you're calling the new jig "compromised" (and you don't even have one yet)... because you can't adjust the Stop Collar?  Don't recall anyone complaining about pin pivot collars not being easily adjusted...    (Now if we're talking pivoting...)   

Your comparison should include the cost difference.  Multiple jigs and the cost of getting them machined (for those who can't do it themselves...)?  1 jig vs. multiple jigs with shims, seems like a good idea to me.  And that doesn't include better adaptation to blade taper.

Moving the adjustment to the USB, as I suggested here, (and I'm sure there'll be other ideas when the jigs become more popular), of if there's issues with "pivoting" can be done.  It'll just take a bit of thought... just like the current jig did.  I think you're too quick to dismiss it.

p.s.  I think using a Lansky jig may have been a better idea, than shims.

...
the SVM-140 is optimized for knives 3mm thick. (This seems very thick for a "thin knife" jig.)
...

I don't think it was optimized for 3mm.  It was just made that way.  Tormek, until now, didn't really see "centering" as an issue, IMO, so the jig was just a larger SVM-45, my guess with little thought for blade thickness.

[3D Anvil]

It's a shame that they didn't make the new jig adjustable for projection distance.  I don't see a compelling reason for them to have left that out. 

[Naf]

Where do I start? (Remember, keep it short).


I'm trying VERY hard to follow all of this (not just this thread).  And I'm trying VERY hard to apply it all to thicker knives (3/16" to 3/8"); not that I don't have thin ones too.  And I'm trying VERY hard to understand exactly how the two new knife jigs fit in with all the knowledge I've read here and use them properly. And I'm gonna have to learn all things FVB (with either the new knife jigs or old knife jigs or both).


I can no longer do a lot of things I used to; physical limitations.  Shims? Can't do. Modify my own jigs?  Can't do.  That why I ordered two of each of the new knife jigs back in mid-April from UK. It seemed to me that even with what I saw in them (in pictures/descriptions), in order to maybe eventually do what I want, I probably need have someone take an "old pair" and a "new pair" and see if they can come up with a way to make a hybrid, of sorts, combining the best aspects of the "old pair" with the best aspects of the "new pair", even if that mean destroying them all "in order to fix them" and hopefully result in a single "hybrid pair" (with a full set of original jigs not to be tampered with, of course); the goal being a solution for "my thicker stuff" that provides me higher ease of use while also applying the collective knowledge found here.


I am still capabale of understanding an awful lot.  Yet, I am very much confused, I think.


Tormek, if you're listening... Love your stuff!  Thank you for such excellent gear!  Is there any chance can get, I don't know, XL versions of some of this stuff.  I not talking about what was it SuperGrind 3000 or something like that. (Well, maybe I would buy a couple of those too, who knows.)  And I not talking about special "accessibility" versions of things. (At some point, I may have ask myself if I should really be trying do this.)  What I'm talking about is knife jigs that work easily/correctly for all knives available in the market (the thicker stuff).  Not that what exists doesn't work in the right hands... that not what I'm trying say at all.  I guess I'm saying I have knives I keep wanting to meticulously sharpen on Tormek that I don't seem be able to the ways discussed on Tormek forum, with even the new knife jigs, and I don't have the FVBs yet (which is yet a whole nother factor).  So, it all tends to drive me back to other sharpeners that I know for fact I can do exactly what I want to do on (just MUCH more slowly), which is the exact opposite of what I want to do... I "bought into" Tormek for very good reasons, and I want be able use them sharpen everything... and I have not been let down at all by the quality of my purchases... but.  Now that I say all this, I guess I do have a little bit of disappointment in there somewhere.  But that not Tormek fault!  It not my fault either!  Guess I just want some aspects of this evolve faster (before I dead) because it seem it should be so simple... join the crowd right?


If any of that make sense to some of you whom I regard as experts and you have ideas for me, PM me.  Not trying to hijack the thread... back to that... Yes, KenS, I do need the KJ-140.  I need all the other knife jigs I bought too, as well as the few Tormek items I haven't yet.  And I especially need more knife jigs that are gen3, or gen4, or gen5... whatever.  This remind me of reading something like "everyone eventually free-hand".  Yeah right.  Can't do.  So, what's next?  Any of this make sense? Maybe I just having a moment of stupidity or my meds aren't working right; obviously these happen.  Maybe I need a robot that I can teach to freehand for me, with stable hands that can safely grip all thickness knives.  (That actually might be easier for me accomplish.)  If it eventually become self-aware and decide kill me, at least I know the knife will be sufficiently:  large, sturdy, and sharp as hell!  (I really not want suffer. Get it over with real quick like please.)

[GKC]

It's a shame that they didn't make the new jig adjustable for projection distance.  I don't see a compelling reason for them to have left that out.

Tormek evidently decided that a split shaft made of a composite material was the best approach for their self-centring jig. This is not compatible with an adjustable collar, so one or the other had to go. The same distance-to-the-wheel adjustment that is made with the collar can be made with the USB (albeit less conveniently if you are doing multiple knives). And the SVMs are still around for those who prefer the adjustable collar.

So, it looks like it was just one of those design compromises.

There are self-centring jigs for other sharpening systems that do not use a split collar, and a few after-market ones for the Tormek. With these, there is a solid shaft that can accommodate an adjustable collar. (I did a post several years ago on quite a good one for the Tormek from Hewn and Hone, unfortunately no longer in production. I still use it, and a TSProf jig that I modified.) I don't know why Tormek did not follow one of those approaches. They might have worried about patents on the other designs or they might have concluded that the split collar design was superior.

Though I have been frustrated by the length of time that it took Tormek to come up with a self-centring jig, I am going to give it some time to see how it works, for me and others, before I make a judgment on the one they have designed.

[Ken S]

I just measured my boning knife, my only thin knife except for paring knives. It is approximately one millimeter thick, but only 130mm in length. It is too short for the KJ-140. I do not have a longer fillet knife. As I haven't needed one in over thirty years, it is not on my must have list. For those of you who do sharpen fillet knives, a one millimeter thick knife seems better suited for the self centering KJ-140.

In one of the online classes, Wolfgang talked about keeping the SVM jig "in the neutral position" where the end of the adjustable shaft is flush with the stop collar. I will be interested to see how this adjustable/non adjustable debate progresses when many of us have used the KJ jig for a while.

For the present, I seem to have answered my original question. Unless I get a longer thin (fillet) knife, I  probably won't need the KJ-140, although I believe the KJ-45 will be my primary knife jig.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I'd second this... I think the few times I've had a knife that I thought of using the SVM-140, they were too narrow (spine to edge), or not long enough to use it.

A Platform Jig might prove more useful.

[tgbto]

Same here, the only times I wanted to use the "old" flexible knife jig, I ended up finding the blade too narrow to allow sharpening at a 15dps angle. So I don't foresee buying the new jig.

[BeSharp]

Henckels filleting knives are the most common knives where I use a regular long knive jig (SVM-140). However, the jig is too long. I resolved this by cutting 10mm off each end, so that it is now only 120mm wide.