Help a Newbie

[Adam1630]

I'm brand new to this and am struggling to interpret the manual with the correct settings for the WM200. I'm sharpening Global kitchen knives and am trying to achieve the Global stated angle of between 10 and 15 degrees, I've selected 14 degrees to start with. Reading the manual as far as Tormek goes this means an edge of 28 degrees, which means I set the diameter of my wheel to 200 and the angle to 14 degrees, is that correct?

Oh and another question, I read on here that we should never use the Japanese Water wheel with the rotation towards to knife blade, yet the Tormek videos I've seen show the wheel being used in exactly this manner, any explanation would be helpful


Thanks

[tgbto]

Hello Adam,

You're correct with regard to using the WM-200. For your desired 14dps, you would have to set it to 28 degrees if you were able to rest it against the bevel, so it would have to be a really wide bevel (such as on some hunting knives for instance). As you are probably resting it against the flat of the blade, because global knives mostly have quite narrow bevels, you will need to use a 14 degrees setting.

Be aware that for tapered knives (ie knives with a thick blade at the spine that gets thinner at the edge), the WM-200 will throw you off a couple of degrees. To set a precise/given angle, you'd have to use a calculator and measure the distance between the top of the USB and the wheel. You could also use the sharpie method described in the manual if you want to replicate the factory angle.

As for the Japanese wheel, I believe the Tormek position is "if you grind edge trailing (rotation away from the edge), you'll avoid nicks in the stone, but it will take longer and you will have a burr that's a bit harder to remove by honing". I personally use it edge leading for knives with angles below 20dps. I used it to polish a few chisels with a high angle (and some were narrow), and did it edge trailing.

[Adam1630]

Thankyou for your extremely clear explanation, I wish the manual was as concise

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Adam.

I suggest you use your black marker as a check. Blacken the bevel and turn the grinding wheel with the power off. If you setup is correct, you will remove the marker from the whole width of the bevel.

Ken

[RickKrung]

...snip...
Oh and another question, I read on here that we should never use the Japanese Water wheel with the rotation towards to knife blade, yet the Tormek videos I've seen show the wheel being used in exactly this manner, any explanation would be helpful

Thanks

...snip...
As for the Japanese wheel, I believe the Tormek position is "if you grind edge trailing (rotation away from the edge), you'll avoid nicks in the stone, but it will take longer and you will have a burr that's a bit harder to remove by honing". I personally use it edge leading for knives with angles below 20dps. I used it to polish a few chisels with a high angle (and some were narrow), and did it edge trailing.

I am not sure why so many seem to have problems with grabbing/gouging of the SJ wheel when using it edge-leading.  I have been doing it this way on everything I use the SJ wheel for, from the beginning and never had a problem.  I think it could be use of too much pressure and possibly momentary loss of focus.  I only use the SJ at the same angle as the bevel was ground in earlier steps, so I'm not attempting to "deburr" using higher angles as Knife Grinders advocated for the deburring steps on paper and felt wheels. 

I do think that it probably takes well developed muscle memory and technique to avoid the grabbing, which could be one caution for newbies and we seem to see a lot of newbies rushing to use the SJ wheels. 

I think there is little reason not to use the SJ wheel edge-trailing if one is more comfortable that way.  I find it curious Tormek's statement quoted by tgbto as I am under the impression that grinding edge-trailing produces a larger burr that is easier to detect.  Perhaps if the burr is larger that is why it may be more difficult to remove with honing.  I do not recall reading anything anywhere else that says an edge-trailing burr differs somehow in being more difficult to remove.  I cannot speak to this personally as I do not grind anything edge-trailing, only honing in that direction and that is always at a higher angle. 

Rick

[cbwx34]

...
I am not sure why so many seem to have problems with grabbing/gouging of the SJ wheel when using it edge-leading.  I have been doing it this way on everything I use the SJ wheel for, from the beginning and never had a problem. 
...

Me either... (I just gave up trying to convince people).   

...
I think there is little reason not to use the SJ wheel edge-trailing if one is more comfortable that way.  I find it curious Tormek's statement quoted by tgbto as I am under the impression that grinding edge-trailing produces a larger burr that is easier to detect.  Perhaps if the burr is larger that is why it may be more difficult to remove with honing.  I do not recall reading anything anywhere else that says an edge-trailing burr differs somehow in being more difficult to remove.
...

My experience, an edge leading burr is "stronger" maybe bigger, but easier to remove.  An edge trailing burr I've found to be "weaker", easier to flip/flop back and forth, and harder to remove.

[tgbto]

See this video at 19:10 for the recap, and a bit before and after this mark for a more in-depth discussion on this very topic.

[John_B]

If I had a Japanese wheel I would use the grading stone to gently round the edges. From pictures I have seen this is where people seem to have issues.

[Ken S]

I agree.

Ken

[TireguyfromMA]

Curses!!   I just put a good size chip, about 3/16 deep x 1" long, in the side of my Japanese stone... .   I would attribute the mistake to a momentary loss of attention while I was finishing off one of 35 knives! I was sharpening for a customer...it wasn't even a nice knife, just some cheap $10 knife.  I can still use the stone for honing without the knife catching the chip area so not as bad as I thought it ws going to be when it first happened.  The biggest question I have now is when it comes time to truing the wheel, will I have a problem if I start on the side with the chip?  I know just before you finish a pass on the Japanese stone with the TT-50 truing fixture you have to lift it up just before you finish the pass or you risk chipping up the edge.  Anyone have experience truing the Japanese stone with a chip in it??

[RickKrung]

Curses!!   I just put a good size chip, about 3/16 deep x 1" long, in the side of my Japanese stone... .   I would attribute the mistake to a momentary loss of attention ...snip...

..snip...  I know just before you finish a pass on the Japanese stone with the TT-50 truing fixture you have to lift it up just before you finish the pass or you risk chipping up the edge.  Anyone have experience truing the Japanese stone with a chip in it??

Have you read through other posts on this matter?  There are a number of them. 

I agree, it probably was due to that momentary lapse in attention. 

I do not agree with what has become folk legend that one must lift the truing tool before exiting the edges.  ... to avoid chipping the edges...   I think that occurs when one runs the truing tool off the edges too fast and with too deep of a cut.  Something that should be done to greatly reduce the chances of chipping is to put a sizeable radius/chamfer on the edges.  Then, as the truing tool exits, it is much less likely to chip.  I think this could help with avoiding a knife grabbing as well. 

I think the bigger mistake is to run the truing tool off the edges at too fast a speed.  I also think only very light cuts should ever be made.  The wheel matrix is too soft to take deep cuts and is just about guaranteed to chip. 

I think it is fair to say that I cheat when it comes to truing tool speed.  I have motorized my truing tool and set it to take around 4 minutes to traverse the SJ wheel surface.  I also have a sizable radius.  No troubles with chipping.  Manually turning the knobs at a 4 minute traverse rate is very tedious, but I think it is necessary. 

Rick

[TireguyfromMA]

Rick, thanks for your detailed response and advice..much appreciated, it's one of the first reasons why I joined this forum.    I haven't seen other posts on truing a chipped SJ wheel. 

I will say the first time I trued my SJ wheel, before it was chipped, and it was still in very good condition, I did notice a bit of chipping happened when I exited the edge.  I was taking off what I thought was a very fine first pass, trying to take off as little as possible, going about at a normal speed but I had not done was chamfer the edge, good advice again. 

Any good advice, or experience on running the truing tool over a chipped SJ wheel?  My concern is the tip of the truing tool when it passes over the chipped area making it even worse.  I'm thinking I might even try to gradually even it out with a diamond plate in the SE-77 square edge jig resting on the stone. 

[Ken S]

I agree with Rick, light cuts and slow. If I would differ from him, I would probably be lighter and slower........

I learned this the hard way several years ago. I forgot to tighten the locking screw on my TT-50. The diamond cutter dug into my grinding wheel bringing it to an immediate stop. I thought I had ruined my TT-50. I actually ordered a replacement TT-50. Several days later, I became bold enough to try using my "ruined" TT-50. I thought I had nothing to lose.

I started very tentatively, one third to one half of a microadjust number for the cut depth and traversing VERY slowly.
To my surprise, my TT-50 was working perfectly. The first light pass only removed the smallest amount of the grinding wheel and only from the very highest spots. If I was designing a microadjust specifically for truing, I would double the number of numbers on it. Six numbers (divisions) is fine for faster operations and users in a hurry. For more sensitive work, more divisions and very small depth adjustments work better. Why risk damaging a four hundred dollar grinding wheel?

I have on occasion made much deeper truing cuts with my SB-250. (working carefully). I can do it; however, I much prefer light and slow. I like observing the gradual process and the relaxed, low stress pace. Truing is a process requiring both learning the skill and developing self confidence. Slow and steady wins both events.

For years, I have pestered Tormek to make more in depth training videos. I knew there have been many subtle technique developments which have essentially remained at headquarters. These are not top secret, just not efficiently disseminated among the Tormek users. Using the stone grader to shape small radaii on the two corners of the grinding wheel is an excellent example of the benefits of these long awaited in depth training videos (the online live classes). I now radius the corners of the grinding wheel prior to truing. I have never actually chipped a wheel while truing; however, it seems a wise precaution. Well done, Tormek Training Team!!!

Ken

[cbwx34]

An old thread with a bit of info...

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3744

[RickKrung]

And then there is this one, where my SJ wheel fell from a table and became horribly cracked and chipped.  As discussed there, the cracks closed up amazingly tight and after truing, the wheel has been in service for over three years since without any issues.  The very large chip on the edge does not cause any problems. 

As for Ken's method of using very small movements of the Micro-Adjust (fractions of a graduation), perhaps a pipe dream, but I think finer threads on the support bar would really make making those very small adjustments much easier.  Not likely to happen as it would be a totally custom fabrication and even I am not inclined. 

Rick