T4 and SJ 200

[Millerti87]

Hey all!

I'm about to order my T4 (I might just pull the trigger to the T8), and need some help deciding on whether the Japanese water stone would be beneficial for me or not.

I'll sharpen mainly knives at this point. It'll be anything from small pocket knives to whatever my kitchen has to throw at it. I have a few higher end knives, and some custom knives that I'd like to keep sharp. I'd also like to be able to take care of family and friends knives for fun. I have zero desire to run a business or do anything large scale.

I can't say I'll chase a mirror edge, but if I can get one, I won't be upset. But I'd like the option to do one if I get bored. I want the sharpest usable blade I can get, not necessarily the sharpest that's unstable. And I'd like it to be easily repeatable. Eventually I'd like to be able to do woodworking tools, but for the time being, that's not a huge priority for me.

I'm currently debating if it's worth it to get the SJ-200, or get a second leather wheel with a higher grit diamond paste. From what I'm seeing, most people who use the Sj-200 won't strop afterwards.

Anywho, what are your thoughts on the japanese water stone? Anyone able to achieve similar results without it?

[John_B]

You can achieve razor sharp edges with the standard stone and stock paste with a leather wheel. I recommend learning how to get the best edge with the standard setup before you invest in anything. I too thought about the Japanese stone and so far I have not got it. To be honest if I was to get anything it would be a coarser stone to chipped the sharpening of the chipped knives I get. I use a Front Vertical Base to control the honing angle; this along with the extended support are my only additions for daily work. For my knives I bought another leather wheel and use 1µ diamonds on it.

[Ken S]

I essentially agree with John. Learn to use the SG wheel and leather honing wheel with PA-70 honing compound.
Really master it. Don't short circuit yourself by buying more stuff (including the Japanese wheel) until you have full control of the basic machine.

Ken

[tgbto]

Hello,

In my opinion, the SJ does not do much for sharpness with standard knives. The only knife I found where the SJ saves some honing is with a 62-63 HRC steel.

For the rest, the SG+PA-70 works a charm. As for not needing to hone when using the SG, I know it's the Tormek recommendation. However my personal experience with BESS measurements is that honing after using the SJ on standard steels does indeed increase sharpness.

Cheers,

Nick.

[Ken S]

Timothy,

After rereading and further thought about your post, I believe your question is out of sequence. You are not alone in this. It seems to be a common pattern in beginning Tormek users. I did the same thing when I started. The clue is in your first sentence. You state that you are just about ready to pull the trigger on purchasing a T4, although you might get a T8 (presumably one or the other).

You will probably have your Tormek for many years. You have a well thought through realistic set of projected uses. You have wisely ruled out needing to prepare for a busy sharpening business as you realize that it holds no interest for you. I urge you to bring this self awareness to deciding which size Tormek to purchase.

The use of the word "size" is intentional. The diameter of the grinding wheel is the primary difference between the T4 and the T8. Your work environment should be the prime consideration in deciding which size you want. If you have a large enough work area to have a dedicated stationary area for your Tormek, the T8 may be a logical choice. If you must frequently move your Tormek, at half the weight, the T4 is a definite contender. Either size will easily handle your projected needs.

Forget cost differences in making your decision. When adding in the essential TT-50 to the T4, the cost difference is nominal for a long term purchase. Forget the outdated "thirty minute duty cycle" myth. Tormek corrected the overheating problem with the machined zinc top. All of the jigs work with either size. The recent introduction of the three diamond grinding wheels for the T4 makes the grinding wheel selection difference a moot point. Incidentally, the 200mm diameter of the T4 wheels is the same as the standard dry grinders and the 40mm width is larger than the standard one inch of dry grinding wheels.

Be definite in your size decision. Postpone your SJ wheel decision for a year. The SJ will still be readily available then.

Keep us posted.

Ken

[tgbto]

Quick addition : You can get a fairly decent-looking edge with the SG graded fine with a diamond plate, followed by a careful honing on the leather wheel with PA-77. Il will not be as close to a mirror edge as the SJ, but it will still shine.

If you hesitate between the T-8 and T-4, I'd second Ken: if the size of the T-8 is not a showstopper, go for it. What you save not buying the SJ upfront will pay for both the difference with the T-8 AND the FVB, which as John mentioned is a really worthy addition. Using it will get you sharper, faster, and also improve the final looks of your edge.

Cheers,

Nick.

[Millerti87]

Timothy,

After rereading and further thought about your post, I believe your question is out of sequence. You are not alone in this. It seems to be a common pattern in beginning Tormek users. I did the same thing when I started. The clue is in your first sentence. You state that you are just about ready to pull the trigger on purchasing a T4, although you might get a T8 (presumably one or the other).

You will probably have your Tormek for many years. You have a well thought through realistic set of projected uses. You have wisely ruled out needing to prepare for a busy sharpening business as you realize that it holds no interest for you. I urge you to bring this self awareness to deciding which size Tormek to purchase.

The use of the word "size" is intentional. The diameter of the grinding wheel is the primary difference between the T4 and the T8. Your work environment should be the prime consideration in deciding which size you want. If you have a large enough work area to have a dedicated stationary area for your Tormek, the T8 may be a logical choice. If you must frequently move your Tormek, at half the weight, the T4 is a definite contender. Either size will easily handle your projected needs.

Forget cost differences in making your decision. When adding in the essential TT-50 to the T4, the cost difference is nominal for a long term purchase. Forget the outdated "thirty minute duty cycle" myth. Tormek corrected the overheating problem with the machined zinc top. All of the jigs work with either size. The recent introduction of the three diamond grinding wheels for the T4 makes the grinding wheel selection difference a moot point. Incidentally, the 200mm diameter of the T4 wheels is the same as the standard dry grinders and the 40mm width is larger than the standard one inch of dry grinding wheels.

Be definite in your size decision. Postpone your SJ wheel decision for a year. The SJ will still be readily available then.

Keep us posted.

Ken

That's correct. I'll be ordering tonight or tomorrow. I initially ordered a TSPROF K03, but shortly cancelled the order. With my schedule, and other factors, using a K03 is just not in the books. Once the order is totally cancelled I'll be moving forward on the Tormek.

I would like the T8, as I fully believe in buy once, cry once. The issue lies with my current living situation. I'm in a small 2 bedroom apartment with my fiancee, with very minimal workspace dedicated for me. Our second bedroom is my home office, which already houses a majority of my hobbies (Bourbon/scotch collection, firearms, tools, etc.). Whatever I get will need to be able to be pulled out, and then put away when not in use. I have a large walnut desk in my office that could suffice as a workstation, and I can also use our kitchen counters as a workstation. I also would like to be able to have it travel with me, so if I visit family I can easily transport it to sharpen their knives. With all of that being said, the platform difference between the two is minimal. The weight is a significant amount, but carrying around an extra 13lbs or so isn't going to kill me. The idea of a smaller package is alluring to me, but the reality Is that it doesn't seem to be that big of a difference in size.

Maybe I'll make a quick cardboard cut out of the platform and place it at the places I will be using it, to see if the size difference will matter or not. That should give me some indication if it'll fit reasonably or not.

[tgbto]

Maybe I'll make a quick cardboard cut out of the platform and place it at the places I will be using it, to see if the size difference will matter or not. That should give me some indication if it'll fit reasonably or not.

And don't forget you'll need some side clearance to account for the whole length of the blades when sharpening and honing. There WILL also be some water spillage.

[Millerti87]

Update for you all!

I looked at space, transportability, etc. realizing that would be the determining factor. My available space to store it just wasn't big enough to house a T8. I went with a T4, for now. Eventually I'll upgrade to a T8 once I have a larger space. My younger brother has already called dibs.

I pulled an old knife block out of storage to practice on. The first steak knife I did I, I tried to ignore the angle guide and use a calculator. I didn't have all the settings correct and had the angle set way to high. After that, I used the included angle guide and proceeded to go through the knife block. By the 5th steak knife, I was getting some very good results. When I got to the chef knife, I made sure to take my time, and just work through the motions. My honing still needed practice, but slicing paper was a piece of cake. I was even able to "shave paper". My fiancée wasn't excited that I woke her up at midnight to show her, but she enjoyed my enthusiasm as a 34 year old man giggling at paper shavings a midnight. I gave that knife block to my mother (she needed some new knifes, and I had been holding on to that set to give her once I was able to get around to sharpen it).

I picked up an extra honing wheel, and some .5 micron diamond paste to go along with that one. I gave my benchmade bugout a ride on the tormek. Used the standard paste that comes with the original honing wheel, then swapped out wheels, cleaned the benchmade, and ran it a few times on at .5 micron. At this point I can fold a post it note upright, and watch the knife just glide through the paper. I cut myself with that knife a few hours ago, and was speechless at how deep it got for how little pressure was used. My surgeons may get jealous that my pocket knife is sharper than their scalpels.

After that, I took two of my recently acquired knifes to the honing wheel. Both knifes were delivered a few days prior, and pretty sharp as it was. I didn't need to give them a sharpen, but wanted to play with the honing wheel. I can say, without a doubt, they are much sharper now than when they came to me. I sent a video of them going through paper to the maker, and he seemed quite happy I'd be taking care of what he sent me.

Tomorrow morning I'll be going through the remainder of my kitchen knives. I'm looking forward to being able to use those to make a small Christmas dinner for my fiancée and future in-laws.

I might have rambled a bit, but I'm incredibly enthused with the Tormek and can't wait to take it everywhere with me. 

[Ken S]

Well done Timothy! You are experiencing the joy of being able to make your knives Tormek Sharp.

Do not be in a hurry to "upgrade" to a T8. I have nothing negative to say about the T8; however, most of the "upgrade" chatter strikes me as marketing hype. The strongest "upgrade" argument was the now debunked myth of the dreaded "thirty minute duty cycle". I have read every post about the T4 since its introduction in 2014 and have never read a post about motor burnout. I suspect the majority of the pro T8 comments are written by users who have never used a T4. How many us really need the extra power of the T8?

On a practical level, if you should decide that you want the biggest, most powerful model, any of the jigs you might purchase for your T4 are fully compatable with the T8.

Being a practical person, I believe the ultimate sharpness test is how your knives cut while preparing Christmas dinner, their true function.

Enjoy the Tormek experience. Enhance that experience by studying the online classes.

Ken

[Ken S]

Timothy,

I trust your Christmas dinner was both a pleasure to prepare and share.
It should be a happy memory for many years.

Ken

[Millerti87]

Hey Ken,

Yes, Christmas was wonderful! I made an amazing prime rib with some great sides. My future father in law has been raving about the leftovers, and received a message from his wife where he said "That boy can cook". Hopefully yours was great as well!

I'd agree, no rush to "upgrade". I guess I wouldn't call it an upgrade, but more of a convenience. My main gripe with the T4 at the moment is the lack of the easy lock nut. I like to finish honing with a .5 micron Diamond paste, and it's not a big issue to grab a socket to take off the honing wheel, but its another item to have to keep with me.

I did have one issue, on my Zwilling Kramer Chef Knife where I could not get a burr to form on one side. I was able to get the knife sharp, but I was confused at the lack of the burr. I used the sharpie method and it looked like there was one very thin line along the edge of the blade that would not go away. I don't know if the water was bogged down with material, or if I wasn't using the stone grader enough. But it was definitely frustrating.

[Ken S]

Timothy,

I am pleased that your Christmas dinner was so well received. Well done!

There is an easy fix for your "easy lock nut" dilemma. Attached is a link to the parts page of a large US dealer which carries parts. (Any Tormek dealer should be able to order parts for you.) Please note the part names and numbers.

https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/pages/replacement-parts-for-t-7-and-2000-all-10-systems

The part you want is: 50 - 7041 Locking Knob for Honing Wheel

Although it is listed for the T7/8 models, it is fully interchangeable with the T4. This was originally an optional accessory that Tormek introduced many years ago when the earlier version of the composite honing wheel was introduced. Tormek called it the "quick change". It later became standard with the larger Tormeks.
When my T4 arrived, i set it up next to my T7 and switched both the quick change and the EZYlock nut to the T4. I purchased both parts and have happily used them ever since. As parts orders usually include shipping charges, I would recommend ordering both at the same time. The other part is:

68 - EZ-250 EzyLock for MSK-250 Shaft

Zwilling knives are popular. Other members or support (support@tormek.se) should be able to answer that question for you.

Ken

[cbwx34]

...
I did have one issue, on my Zwilling Kramer Chef Knife where I could not get a burr to form on one side. I was able to get the knife sharp, but I was confused at the lack of the burr. I used the sharpie method and it looked like there was one very thin line along the edge of the blade that would not go away. I don't know if the water was bogged down with material, or if I wasn't using the stone grader enough. But it was definitely frustrating.

I don't have experience with that particular knife, but in general, many knives that are commercially sharpened are often honed on one side at a very high angle to remove the burr.  So, you end up with what you saw... one side of the knife that has a "line" that doesn't seem to want to go away, even though you're matching the majority of the angle with the Sharpie method.

I often say that the first sharpening sets the knife up for the way you sharpen, and may take some time, so the only thing you can do is "grind it out"... sharpen the knife until the line is gone (with the stone graded "coarse").  Make sure you work both sides of the knife so you keep the sides even.  Once you do that, re-sharpening is quick and easy. (And it should come out much sharper).

[Millerti87]

Timothy,

I am pleased that your Christmas dinner was so well received. Well done!

There is an easy fix for your "easy lock nut" dilemma. Attached is a link to the parts page of a large US dealer which carries parts. (Any Tormek dealer should be able to order parts for you.) Please note the part names and numbers.

https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/pages/replacement-parts-for-t-7-and-2000-all-10-systems

The part you want is: 50 - 7041 Locking Knob for Honing Wheel

Although it is listed for the T7/8 models, it is fully interchangeable with the T4. This was originally an optional accessory that Tormek introduced many years ago when the earlier version of the composite honing wheel was introduced. Tormek called it the "quick change". It later became standard with the larger Tormeks.
When my T4 arrived, i set it up next to my T7 and switched both the quick change and the EZYlock nut to the T4. I purchased both parts and have happily used them ever since. As parts orders usually include shipping charges, I would recommend ordering both at the same time. The other part is:

68 - EZ-250 EzyLock for MSK-250 Shaft

Zwilling knives are popular. Other members or support (support@tormek.se) should be able to answer that question for you.

Ken

Awesome! I'll get those ordered. Thanks!