A beginner's feedback.

[tgbto]

Fellows,

This post is clearly not to pretend to give advice on how to use the Tormek, just to give food for thoughts to potential other time-constrained, tech nerds who might come across this excellent forum. I will never say enough how much this community has given me to think about, and it was probably the single most critical tool in geeting hold of my beloved Tormek(s).

I've had the Tormek for a year now. I've binge read the forums before I got the T8 and I chose to mostly skip the holy chisel sharpening part, because I mostly use knives and because I had spent hundred of hours sharpening them on other jigs as well as freehand on whetstones. This was my reference both for time consumption and for the result I was expecting. I also tried to watch wootz's videos, bought his book and ordered a FVB from him, as the physics of controlling the angle made sense to me.

My goal was to get at least the same sharpness I got from my jigs in much less time. I sharpen my own kitchen knives as well as my friends/family/neighbours' so I'd say about 300 knives per year.

Then I trained (a lot) on basic knives and once I was satisfied with the process I moved to my precious ones... My initial setup was a T-8 with SG and SJ (The mirror polished edge does look awfully good for lack of a better purpose). I'm also a tech junkie, so I got the DBS and the SB, with the result of getting the best holes out of standard bits I've ever seen. I included the spreadsheet by Jan in my process as it allows me to save the trial-and-error stage of the sharpie trick, and I then found I had cut my sharpening time by roughly 50% on the Tormek and got comparable sharpness. Still there were a few things that were bothering me : I found it painful to have to remove the stone for honing long knives. The piece of plastic pipe that came with the Tormek was fiddly and seemed to have a will of its own to hide beneath other stuff. I also found that some knives didn't feel quite right when cutting actual food and just rehoning them with ten passes changed them completely.

So, still as part of experimenting to try and find what best suited me, I bought the BESS scale which gives me a *relative* indication of sharpness, because of the tensioning issue. I also have a binocular microscope which I use to look at the burr and correlate with BESS results. I also wanted to see for myself what actual difference the steel made, and if there was such an increase in sharpness if you went full monty, so I ordered the felt wheel from schleifjunkies, along with a diamond spray and the sturdy piece of plastic to replace the wheel when honing. And I experimented also a lot with the forward/backward pivoting / lifting.

I also bought the DF stone to skip the stone diameter measurement issue, but I'm not sure it's even broken in as I really don't like the feeling at all compared to good "old" grinding stones. And I was getting crazy with having to mount/unmount stones for honing, so I decided to by a T-8 custom just to hold the honing wheel and the FVB. I'd probably get around to freehand honing after a while, but having a demanding job, kids, and an addiction to sports, spending hundreds of hours perfecting it is not really an option. I know the buying spree might be shocking to some, and I apologize, but compared to other leisures, it still remains reasonably priced overall.

So as of today, I have devised the following processes:

A. For standard kitchen knives, blunt from careless use or prolonged use without sharpening or use of ceramics freehand to restore the edge, but not badly damaged, and sharpened at the target angle already :
  A1. SG Stone measurement if it has just been trued or if more than 10 knives since last measurement. I found trueing removes about .2 millimeters, and a standard knife sharpening about .01 millimeter on average over 100 knives. It doesn't matter that much but takes about 30 seconds, input to TormekCalc included.
  A2. Set-up USB to stone distance on SG and leather wheel.
  A2. Grind over ungraded SG stone @15 to 18dps
  A3. Hone @+2dps on leather wheel with PA compound about 15 times each side

The usual result is about 100 (15dps) to 140 (18dps) BESS, with around 5 to 7 minutes per knife.

A+ For badly damaged knives or knives or knives with an unknown but obviously different angle, grade the SG stone coarse first. The scratches allow to judge the effect same as with the sharpie trick, and get the burr raised on each side, then proceed with process A. The SG will soon settle back to its in-between grit which is fine.

B. For my dear knives, or those of my friend who is a cook and loves what I do with his high-end knives, and only when I feel like it (if in a hurry, process A works damn well)
  B1 measure the SG and SJ stone, and place the SG stone on the T-8 with the leather wheel, so I remove (and risk) the SG stone rather than the SJ when removing it. Place the SJ stone on the T-8 with the felt wheel.
  B2 setup USB to stone distances on all 4 wheels
  B3 grind on ungraded SG stone
  B4 (optional) polish on SJ stone (again, just for looks, and I don't like stopping there because the cutting quality is not so great and edge retention is bad. I disagree you can leave it un-honed, expect maybe after reduced-pressure passes and a skill I will not possess with my abilities and my available time).
  B5 hone on leather wheel with PA Compound @+2 dps, 15 times per side, or 5 times if the SJ was used.
  B6 hone on felt wheel with 1 micron diamond @+2 dps (I found honing @+.5 dps was way too slow to see the slightest change in BESS score)
  B7 (optional, for hard steels only) hone on leather wheel with Chromox, @+1 dps to maybe improve BESS, and improve looks if

This gives me 70 to 80 BESS with my knives, which are around 62 HRC, in roughly 15 to 20 minutes per knife.

Overall the edge retention is much improved, but I think it comes more from reading KG's book and could have been obtained with the other methods I used. The sharpening time has been cut 50 to 70%.

Now a few ideas, that probably aren't universally true :
- The SG is indeed a great stone, to be used to one's heart content
- The SJ is purely for looks and may even degrade the result compared to honing if left untouched
- The T-8 should be sold with the long USBs. I don't really see the advantage of preferring the short ones, except from a commercial standpoint. It seems to me akin to selling a crippled machine, not suitable for long knives, knowing that users having invested 800+ bucks in their intial setup will spend a few more to have a usable machine. Replace a bending step with a welding step and boom.
- The AngleMaster is useless with knives. Sure, you can use it to measure the wrong bevel angle, then correct it with the sharpie, but then either use the sharpie from scratch or use TormekCalc to do it in a pinch. When I'm satisfied with the angle, having tried both higher and lower angles, I not only save it in TormekCalc as the best angle, but I also laser etch it on the blade. The AngleMaster would shine with traditional japanese knifes angle measurment, for sure (usuba, deba, yanagiba and the likes) but then you'd have to perform hara-kiri for having abused your knife in such a way. Even Wootz's demo on how to sharpen such a blade yields a very sharp blade, no question there, but one which is totally out of the question for a japanese chef, both lookswise and feelingwise.
- The additional sharpness you get from the additional 500 bucks of felt wheel, compounds, second leather wheel, chromox is nice, but can certainly be done without. Standard leather wheel and standard PA-70 compound work a charm.
- The FVB is an absolute must, even if you're an expert at honing freehand, it will make honing faster.
- Could there be a way to have a wider T-8, maybe with additional sleeves and a wider body, to avoid the need to remove the stone for long knives ?
- The sharpie trick (or the scratches from coarse SG) is (are) very useful for determing what action wrt pivoting/lifting is necessary to get the tip you want. There is no universal answer to that because it varies according to the shape of the blade. This is where finesse and training cannot be replaced by the assistance of a jig. The audible and visual (water flow) feedback from the SG help me a lot with reproducing the optimal action for this.

Cheers,

Nick.

[cbwx34]

...
- Could there be a way to have a wider T-8, maybe with additional sleeves and a wider body, to avoid the need to remove the stone for long knives ?
...

Add an extension shaft for the leather wheel, similar to the one that comes with the LA-120, for more room?

[tgbto]

Add an extension shaft for the leather wheel, similar to the one that comes with the LA-120, for more room?

Yes, but then the long USB would probably be barely sufficient for long knives ?

[cbwx34]

Add an extension shaft for the leather wheel, similar to the one that comes with the LA-120, for more room?

Yes, but then the long USB would probably be barely sufficient for long knives ?

Then you find someting creative...

[Ken S]

Nick,

You have developed a very sophisticated technique. If I might, I would question two things you mention.

First, as the originator and chief advocate of "the holy chisel", I believe you are missing the purpose of it. It is not for everyone and the goal is certainly not sharp chisels. Many of our members join us with very little, if any, sharpening background. A chisel is the most basic tool to sharpen, and learn the basics of the Tormek. The square edge jig is included with most new Tormeks. Chisels like I recommend are inexpensive.

Second, regarding including the long usb (US-430): The long usb is indeed a useful tool for longer knives. For most sharpening, the extra length offers no advantage. The original longer usb, the US-400, was part of the T-4000, Tormek's ancestor of the T2. It was available in extremely limited quantities after the T-4000 was long discontinued.
I was one of a small group who encouraged Tormek to offer a small production run. Tormek did that and they sold out quickly. Seeing continued demand, I wrote Tormek and suggested that the lengthen the legs. The present version, the US-430 has legs 50mm longer, making it ideal to sharpen cleavers.

Including it with all new Tormeks would add approximately $50US to the price for something which would only benefit some knife sharpeners. That might not go down too well with the woodworkers and drill bit sharpeners.

Ken

[tgbto]

Ken,

Thank you for your feedback. I didn't mean to imply anything negative regarding sharpening chisels, I believe it is indeed a very efficient way to get to grips with the Tormek. I just shared the fact that there might be alternate routes to take if, like me, you specialize in knives. You also once referred me to Victorinox knives for training, and they are indeed well suited for the task.

As for the US-430, I agree with you it wouldn't make sense to bump up the price of the basic tormek, except perhaps by a few bucks. However, I don't think the price difference between the two reflects anything more than a clever - if a bit disappointing - marketing choice by Tormek. I don't see how the increased amount of material would justify such a difference, nor how replacing the bending step by a welding one would. Even more so as you already need a welding step for the threaded rod. With whatever industrial background I have, I estimate the cost difference to be in the range of 2-4 USD at most. And for information, in Europe the price difference is 30 EUR, far from 55 USD. As I don't see any advantage in having the shorter one, I think a customer-oriented decision would be to drop the short one off the catalogue. One might even recoup the potential 3 additional bucks by carrying and stocking only one reference.
Well I guess business is business , yet if I personally don't mind paying more for added value, I feel a bit like I had no real choice but to comply with this marketing stunt once I had decided for the Tormek for knives. And I think anyone thinking of purchasing one with the same objective should know he/she will most likely have to do it too.

Nick.

[Ken S]

Nick,

I do respect your opinion. You and I came to the Tormek with different needs. In 2009, I took a class in hand cut dovetails. The class gave me the excuse to purchase the set of Marples chisels I had wanted. (not my best idea).
During preparation of these new chisels with bench stones, I overworked my hands, causing considerable pain. A helpful conversation with the instructor convinced me to purchase my first Tormek.

I had my Tormek for several years before I sharpened my kitchen knives. This changed when I had a chance meeting with Steve Bottorff. Being a training junkie and A Tormek junkie, I was not about to let the opportunity to learn from a master pass me by. Since then perhaps half of my sharpening time is with knives, although I am still deep down a chisel and plane sharpener.

You are part of a substantial number of Tormek users that Tormek recognizes sharpen exclusively knives. Your group may never sharpen a chisel. That's fine; the Tormek is a versatile multi purpose machine.

I purchased my set of Henckel kitchen knives in 1990. At the time, they were the top of the line with full bolsters. I still use them, although now I am more apt to pull a thinner Victorinox out of my knife block. Jeff Farris, the founder of this forum, introduced me to Victorinox knives. Jeff spent much of the year traveling and demonstrating for Tormek. He needed reliable, reasonably priced demonstration knives, knives which would sharpen easily and well even on the inevitable occasional bad day. I consider Victorinox knives a very good choice for both the kitchen and for training the sharpener. I classify them the knife equivalent of my "holy chisels".

I see your point about the longer usb (US-430). However, the longer usb has never been a mainstream Tormek product. It was made for the longer commercial kitchen purposed T-4000, now long out of production. Tormek had no plans to reintroduce the long usb. At the request of several users, Tormek agreed to produce a limited production run of 300 units. These quickly sold out. In fact, I have never even seen one on ebay. The present US-430 version is still a small production item used by a small number of knife sharpeners. I find it useful, especially with my Chinese cleaver and ten inch chef knife. (It also works very well with the T4.)

The standard US-105 usb has been standard issue since it was first introduced. It has been the heart of the Tormek's versatility. I do not believe including it is in any way a diabolical marketing plot. I do believe the new custom version of the T8 will prove useful for knife sharpeners. I would choose the US-430 as a support bar for it.

Both the Tormek and sharpening (especially knife sharpening) are evolving, and will continue to do so. It is an interesting journey.

Ken

[Naf]

tgbto,


Your story / mine very alike in more ways than different. I been discouraged now by long post like yours, so not explaineverything but here few key ones...


1. read LOTS on forum before purchase
1.5 replace whet stones with guided systems (dexterity issues)
2. spending spree, definitely - still brand new things in boxes here,  but
3. not feel price terrible/ wanted have things available when ready try it, given current supply chain issues
4. used composite honing originally instead of SJ
5. replace your year with two months... have logged hundreds hours before deciding post initial questions around two months in
6. maybe should haveintroduced myself like you eloquently did, but that also might got me in trouble even sooner.


better stop there. i somehow on thin ice here.   Your post make LOT sense with me.

[Naf]

I should, however, add:  during my research it did certainly seem like the T8 prolly the gold standard for liquid cooled grinders, which was prerequisite, as not want hurt heat treat on any of my "tools", though debatable by others, was simply not chance was willing to take. Think I made right purchase choice. Not sure I made right choice about posting. Feels like totally different crowd now than when only reading months ago. Not sure why. Learning use T8 definitely easier than learning use forum.

[John_B]

I went a less expensive route for additional fine honing. I bought a second leather wheel and after oiling it I use 1µ diamond spray. With just this addition the edges are exceptionally sharp. Since I am not entering contests I find this last honing step is unnecessary for all but the most demanding. With the standard wheel and honing with Tormeks paste it is easy to achieve results far better than new out of the box commercial knives. Note that I do use the FVB for honing.

[Naf]

I hope try that some day, have not got that far yet. I not up for any contest either, really... just happy sharpening my own stuff... and trying learn this incredible system... with some incredible hardships (my own, NOT Tormek problem)... though I not anticipate find some complexities with few jigs used so far... or few other related things... hope to get even some acknowledgement of FVB order soon, so I have more than simple email from PayPal indicating they process yet more funds... which have always been very careful with... what up with that anyway? Is normal hear absolutely nothing after order this? Order ebook too, another PayPal email, but that it.  Since then, ordered hardcopy on Amazon and been wanting open it cover, but other pressing matters... just keep pressing.