Better/finer stone?

[Troutgetter]

Hi Guys.
My name's Mike. Yeah, I'm a FNG.
Just got my tormek and I have a question after using this machine after a week. Yeah I know, one freaking week.
Anyway...and please don't take offense, I am accustomed to sharpening to a finer edge by hand than by this machine.

I make bamboo fly rods by trade. I use old Stanley 9 1/2's and sharpen the irons on a 4000/8000 gr Japanese water stone.
My question is...the Original Manufacturers Product of 650 grit stone is WAY too rough even after applying the "fine" stone to the wheel and honing.
I see that Japan Woodworkers offers two grades of waterstones for grinders. Will either of these wheels fit my machine and have any of you used them?
I bought this machine to get away from hours of handsharpening but...I want a SHARP iron.  Not a shiny iron.
Not trying to be a pain but all youse guys know how much this machine costs. I thought I'd ask you because I assume you guys use this machine everyday as I assumed I would be.
My best to you all,
Mike

[Jeff Farris]

I think maybe you are not using the stone grader long enough or with enough pressure.  You should be able to get the stone smooth enough that you cannot feel the abrasive at all, and it should leave a very fine finish - from the stone.  Then polish off on the leather strop.  Give it another try, with very firm pressure for 45 seconds or so.  

[Troutgetter]

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the quick reply!
I'll give the tips you gave a try !
Thanks again,
Mike

[msrdnr]

This is not the "official" answer, but for plane blades I personally use the Tormek to create the edge, then turn to my water stones and hone by hand. Half a dozen strokes on the 1,000 grit stone to make sure the edge is perfectly flat across, then another half dozen strokes on the 8,000 grit stone, finally half a dozen strokes on some plywood rubbed with green honing compound, and I have a perfect cutting edge. It may sound like a lot, but from the time I leave the Tormek the honing takes about 90 seconds, which is probably faster than I could hone on the Tormek's leather wheel anyway.

This may not be the "purist" approach but it works extremely well.

[Troutgetter]

Hi msrdnr,
Thanks for the help!
I was wondering if I was going to have to do some kind of "combo" thing. I'd prefer not to if I can help it, but if that's what it takes then I'll give it a try if the first tips from Jeff don't pan out. I'm hoping they do though. I'm still trying to justify the cost!  
Mike

[Jeff Farris]

This is not the "official" answer, but for plane blades I personally use the Tormek to create the edge, then turn to my water stones and hone by hand. Half a dozen strokes on the 1,000 grit stone to make sure the edge is perfectly flat across, then another half dozen strokes on the 8,000 grit stone, finally half a dozen strokes on some plywood rubbed with green honing compound, and I have a perfect cutting edge. It may sound like a lot, but from the time I leave the Tormek the honing takes about 90 seconds, which is probably faster than I could hone on the Tormek's leather wheel anyway.

This may not be the "purist" approach but it works extremely well.

This will certainly get the job done, but it should not be needed, necessary or even advisable once you have a TORMEK. If you are not satisfied with the edge you're getting from the TORMEK process (shaping with 220, refining with the graded 1000 surface, and then honing on the leather wheel), then look at your technique before looking at what else you need to buy or what further steps you might need to take.  In most cases, there is something (usually minor) that you're doing wrong that is causing this extra work. Here are some common problems (in no certain order), their causes and the simple solutions.

Slow Steel Removal
Usually caused by a dirty or glazed stone. Be more aggressive when using the coarse side of the stone grader. Use the corner of the grader for quickly removing stain and glaze. Use firm pressure, if you can slow down or stop the stone, then check your drive wheel. It might need to be cleaned with some coarse sandpaper (see the handbook).

Honing wheel cannot deliver mirror finish
99 times out of 100, this is not a problem with the honing wheel, or your technique in honing. It is a problem one step before that, when you were using the graded stone. The honing wheel can't take out the deep scratches of the 220 grit. You must get the grindstone cutting very smoothly for the scratch pattern to be fine enough for the leather honing wheel to do its job. Lean on the grader for at least 40 seconds -- a minute wouldn't hurt. Get the stone to the point that it feels like wet glass, rather than an abrasive. Now, it will do the job it was intended to do.

Edge rounded by honing
This one happens seldom enough to almost qualify as an urban myth.  There's a lot more theoretical rounding over going on in various bulletin boards than real life rounding over happening on TORMEK machines.  You have to bring the angle way, way too high to actually start rounding over an edge.  That said, when you begin using the system, it may not be that easy to tell where you are on the wheel with relation to the edge. One way to solve the rounding issue is to use the jig when honing the bevel.  With the jig, you can apply much more pressure to the honing wheel, thus speeding up the job and preventing round over.  On the flat side, work at 3 o'clock on the honing wheel, instead of 11 or 12. Now, you can look straight down at the gap between the edge of the tool and the leather.  Start out with your angle too low, and then slowly bring the angle up until the edge just barely touches the leather.  Now, you'll polish the surface and remove the burr without creating a back bevel or rounding the edge.

[msrdnr]

To tell you the truth, Jeff, I've never even tried to use the honing wheel. I can hone so quickly by hand on the waterstones that it just doesn't seem worthwhile to learn the new skill. The large-diameter Tormek wheel creates such an easy bevel to "feel" on the stone, it makes it incredibly easy.

Also, I'm never sure that the edge is perfectly straight across until I hone half a dozen strokes on the 1,000 grit stone. And sure enough, I usually find the edge wearing a tiny bit more in one "high" spot, proving that my Tormek technique was less than perfect.

Finally, I must admit that I just love the tactile feel of that final honing on the waterstones.

Sharpening seems to be such a personal thing in woodworking - no two people do it exactly the same way. Don't get me wrong, though, I LOVE the Tormek and wish I had bought it a long time ago.

[Jeff Farris]

To tell you the truth, Jeff, I've never even tried to use the honing wheel. I can hone so quickly by hand on the waterstones that it just doesn't seem worthwhile to learn the new skill. The large-diameter Tormek wheel creates such an easy bevel to "feel" on the stone, it makes it incredibly easy.

Also, I'm never sure that the edge is perfectly straight across until I hone half a dozen strokes on the 1,000 grit stone. And sure enough, I usually find the edge wearing a tiny bit more in one "high" spot, proving that my Tormek technique was less than perfect.

Finally, I must admit that I just love the tactile feel of that final honing on the waterstones.

Sharpening seems to be such a personal thing in woodworking - no two people do it exactly the same way. Don't get me wrong, though, I LOVE the Tormek and wish I had bought it a long time ago.

You're right.  There are many ways to get to the same edge. If you're comfortable with hand honing, then that is one good approach for you. Lots of folks don't have those skills and have purchased the TORMEK in lieu of a selection of bench stones. I just want to make sure that they understand that they have everything they need already.