CW-220 Composite Honing Wheel, thei missing questions

[Ken S]

I believe the technical term for the abrasive material is "the secret sauce".
I agree, it seems very different than the T2 rubber wheel. I wish Tormek would release more information about these two.

Ken

[BradGE]

Part 2 of Vadim's video on the CW-220 (see link at post #3 above) includes a summary of six different protocols and resulting BESS values:

Note that Protocol #2 is the fastest method with a BESS score of less than 100 (wired edge removed). That is the method I replicated above.

Impressive work BeSharp! 

Is there a way to mount the composite wheel and the leather wheel on one machine?  Just thinking for maximum efficiency it would be nice to not have to remove the SB-250...  So Protocol 2 could be done with two Tormeks - one for grinding and one with the composite + leather wheels... 

[BeSharp]

Part 2 of Vadim's video on the CW-220 (see link at post #3 above) includes a summary of six different protocols and resulting BESS values:

Note that Protocol #2 is the fastest method with a BESS score of less than 100 (wired edge removed). That is the method I replicated above.

Impressive work BeSharp! 

Is there a way to mount the composite wheel and the leather wheel on one machine?  Just thinking for maximum efficiency it would be nice to not have to remove the SB-250...  So Protocol 2 could be done with two Tormeks - one for grinding and one with the composite + leather wheels...

Vadim did all the research, not me. The credit goes to him. I merely replicated his research.

I don't know of a way to mount both the CW-220 and a LA-220 on one machine, since both have three pins that fit into the big drive wheel so it doesn't slip. Perhaps custom machining something on the other end? I'm fortunate that I now have six machines, so I'll be using two machines - just ordered another frontal vertical base.

[BradGE]

BeSharp:  Great, thank you!  Just trying to picture the setup...  Sounds like it would be:

1) Grind on machine 1.
2) Remove stone on machine 1 and hone on composite wheel with FVB, then:

3) Switch to machine 2 with leather wheel + chromium oxide

4) Hand back knife to smiling customer 

[Ken S]

I think your two Tormek set up sounds very efficient, especially for farmers market type situations.

Although presently I could do the two Tormek set up, part of me remembers the years when I had a growing family and all the accociated expenses, when I had more enthusiasm than money. So, I think in terms of how close can I come with a more limited budget, at least until a sharpening business brings in enough revenue to warrent the investment in a second Tormek.

I am familiar with Vadim's well done Knife Grinders videos. He makes a wise comment, "If all you have is the SG grinding wheel, use it". That makes sense to me, although I can see the logic in replacing it with an SB when it starts to wear down. I would replace the SG while there is still good use remaining to give the option of still having it for carbon tools.220mm seems a good compromise replacement point, still leaving a useful wheel.

I like the CW-220 for light knife sharpening. Dull knives would get the full treatment; slightly dull knives should need only the CW-220, a time saver. I think a second support bar is a good investment, especially the US-430.

Iwould also have the leather honing wheel.

I would start out with a hanging strop of flat strop at the finishing step. As finances permit, I like the second Tormek idea.

I have and like the FVB from Knife Grinders. On a tight budget, or for more occasional use, I think three socket set (grub) screws for around $5 US provide a workable alternative, again, for use until business volume justifies the cost of the FVB.

I believe we are just starting to see more innovations in Tormek honing.

Ken

[Arthur]

CW220 is installed on T4. Installation used two standard T8 spare parts.

[Ken S]

Clever idea, Arthur.
Would you please post the part names and numbers? Here is a link to the parts pages of Advanced Machinery. The parts should be available from any Tormek dealer. This is the best listing I have found.

https://advanced-machinery.myshopify.com/pages/tormek-parts-finder

Thanks,

Ken

[Arthur]

Thank you Ken for the appreciation for the newbie!
The following t8 parts from the Advanced machinery catalog were used for installation:
1. 04 Drive wheel for Tormek T-8, T-7, and S2000 (part 0023)
2. 29 Washer for Stone (part 0111).
Of course, there is no problem replacing these parts with cheaper ones. But Tormek is versatile!
And provides more options for t4 owners.

[Ken S]

Thanks, Arthur.

I agree with you on both counts: the Tormek is versatile and there are many options available for the T4. Two questions keep reoccurring: What is possible? And, what is practical? Comparing the parts lists of the T4 and the larger Tormeks, almost all of the parts are identical. Obviously, the shell is smaller and the motor is 120 watts instead of 200 watts. The T4's shaft is shorter running through the shell; however, the two ends where the grinding wheel and drive wheel are located are identical. It uses the same nylon bushings.

There are some real limitations. While, in my opinion, the thirty minute constraint is an unfortunate but corrected leftover from the T3, I do not expect a 120 watt motor to carry the same load as a 200 watt motor.

I must take my grandchildren to school. I will return and complete this..

Back again. I have been a vocal supporter of the T4 since it was introduced in 2014. I can see some situations where the larger motor of the T8 is preferable. If I sharpened many large drill bits or frequently sharpened planer blades or reshaped manyturning tools, the T8 would be my first choice. However, for the everyday sharpening most of us do, the T4 seems up to the task, especially if we are clever.

I like your CW-200 adaptation to T4 idea. Please continue to keep us posted.

Ken

[BeSharp]

Is there a way to mount the composite wheel and the leather wheel on one machine?  Just thinking for maximum efficiency it would be nice to not have to remove the SB-250...  So Protocol 2 could be done with two Tormeks - one for grinding and one with the composite + leather wheels...

Yes, there is a way to mount both the composite wheel and the leather wheel on one machine. This modification is easy, costs very little, and is reversible if you want to mount a stone again.

[BeSharp]

DISCLAIMER: THIS MODIFICATION IS OBVIOUSLY NOT ENDORSED BY TORMEK, AND WILL PROBABLY VOID YOUR WARRANTY.

Parts needed:

Tormek drive wheel for T7 / S2000, part 0023, $98.50 USD
Tormek locking pin for T7/S2000, part 5071, $2.95 USD (but see below)
20mm wide spacer with 12mm hole (or just use lots of 1/2" flat washers)

Tools needed:

Drill press
9/64" drill bit
Deburring bit


Fortunately I have six Tormeks, so I already had a "spare" drive wheel and locking pin. I chose the worst drive shaft to try this (it has a slight bend - but OK since not as critical for honing).

Taking the regular drive wheel off with a 19mm wrench, you will see there is a spring pin through a hole in the shaft. Conveniently, the stone side of the shaft is the same diameter (12mm) as the drive side.

Therefore, all you need to do is to drill a same size hole on the stone side, and then insert a spring pin in that new hole.

Being a spring pin, the new hole diameter is not critical. Trying drill bits on the factory hole, a 9/64" drill bit fitted the best. As for the spring pin, it measured 3.4mm, so it's probably a 1/8" spring pin. You can order the pin from Advance Machinery, but, really, just get a 1/8" spring pin and cut it to length to match the existing pin.

[BeSharp]

(Dimensions below are for a T7. I have not tried this on a T8).

Here is the hole drilled and deburred on the shaft's stone side. Be sure to deburr the hole at both ends to relieve stress on the steel shaft.

I have a 20mm wide spacer from a felt wheel package for serrated knives. Alternatively, get a bunch of M12 or 1/2" washers and use them as spacers. Since both wheels are for honing, with no water used, they don't even have to be stainless steel.

For my situation, with the 20mm long spacer, the hole worked out to be 24mm from the shaft end. Once again, this does not have to be exact, as the slot for the spring pin in the drive wheel is quite deep, and so is forgiving as to the exact hole location. It is more critical to get the hole centred on the shaft, and also perpendicular. 

[BeSharp]

Re-assemble the original drive side wheel and push it through. Insert/build up your washer, then insert the new spring pin through the new hole. Place the new drive wheel onto the new spring pin, then place your right side wheel (CW-220 or LA-220) through the axle, and secure with the EzyLock nut.

[BeSharp]

Cost Analysis

Is this worth doing?

1) Option 1 - use one Tormek, one Frontal Vertical Base ("FVB") - it takes me about a minute to switch the honing wheels and adjust the Universal Support ("US") up/down (about 30 seconds for each). If you're not a commercial sharpener, this is the most cost-effective method.

However, let's say you are a commercial sharpener and price your services at $60 an hour (a dollar a minute). Then swapping wheels ($.50) and fiddling with the US height ($.50) costs $1 in time for every knife...

2) Option 2 - do this modification (about $120). No swapping wheels, just fiddle with USB height. Break-even is 240 knives.

3) Option 3 - buy a second Tormek; say $500 for a custom T8. Saves swapping wheels, but still have to move the FVB from one machine to the other (say 15 seconds = $.25), and also adjust US height ($.50). Break-even is 667 knives.

4) Option 4 - buy a second custom T8 ($500) with a second FVB ($150) = $650. No swapping wheels, no moving FVB between machines, no adjusting US height. Break-even is at 1,300 knives.

In conclusion, Option #2 seems to be the best value. Option #4, of course, saves the most time.

   

[Naf]

I disagree with KenS "I think beginners would be better served with the traditional package."  Don't misunderstand me Ken... much respect for your knowledge/ experience (evidence in myriad posts here). I simply disagree completely.  That said, I both atypical number of ways and I have not use normal honing wheel... I could swore I saw when buying something about just add water, that seem so much easier than trying put oil on standard one evenly, then putting compound on evenly, then probably more cleaning involve regular basis, plus buying compound recurring basis.  I find simplicity/ beauty in putting two fingertip against standard stone (fine) for a second get wet,  then touch composite honing wheel couple seconds, repeat, then hone.  And I still have fingerprints these fingers, but can't think of single reason I actually need them. Try it. Not that I necessarily disagree with anything else in entire topic. Simply saw that statement, immediately disagreed, wanted explain why.  Eye of beholder... just specific use case and my opinion.