Why Felt is Best for Deburring

[ABall]

I was up till 2am last night changing the bevel on my Enlan EL-01, then i made it look pretty with the SJ and finished it on the felt, I dont know if its any sharper, I must get some ciggy papers.  The edge looks good under the new Loupe but I guess this is where a BESS tester comes in.... Rick when you say "diamond paste" is that different to the alcohol suspension one? If so what is it?

[RickKrung]

...snip... Rick when you say "diamond paste" is that different to the alcohol suspension one? If so what is it?

I learned of the diamond paste from Wootz, ala Knife Grinders.  It is quite different from the spray, in that it is a past that must be rubbed onto the felt wheels with fingers or a small spatula.  It is shown on the Knife Grinders page here (way down the page, just above the kangaroo tail strop), but not listed specifically, so I think they do not sell it.  I'm not at home at the moment but from memory the logo "THK" is in the label.  I found the website here.  Again, working from memory, I think I have 15, 5, 3.5, 1, 0.5 and maybe 0.25µ pastes, but I only ever use the 1µ one. 

My honing process is simple, SJ at the sharpened angle then 1µ diamond paste on the rock hard felt wheel, from 0.5 to 2.5° above the angle, depending on the steel.    This usually gets me around 100-105 BESS.  I'm not after the final 5% of sharpness that some are.

Rick

[van]

In 2018 Knife Grinders I recommend using this sequence on Tormek leather wheels:
- leather wheel with Tormek paste composite
- 1 micron composite leather wheel (with angle increment)
- leather wheel with chromium oxide composite + 0.25 micron
using THK diamond pastes (which I still use)
Next, he recommended using the rock hard felt wheel with diamond spray and an alcohol based suspension as you can see on his site, and it's for sale.

[ABall]

In 2018 Knife Grinders I recommend using this sequence on Tormek leather wheels:
- leather wheel with Tormek paste composite
- 1 micron composite leather wheel (with angle increment)
- leather wheel with chromium oxide composite + 0.25 micron
using THK diamond pastes (which I still use)
Next, he recommended using the rock hard felt wheel with diamond spray and an alcohol based suspension as you can see on his site, and it's for sale.

Van, maybe he owes you some royalties..... 

[ABall]

...snip... Rick when you say "diamond paste" is that different to the alcohol suspension one? If so what is it?

I learned of the diamond paste from Wootz, ala Knife Grinders.  It is quite different from the spray, in that it is a past that must be rubbed onto the felt wheels with fingers or a small spatula.  It is shown on the Knife Grinders page here (way down the page, just above the kangaroo tail strop), but not listed specifically, so I think they do not sell it.  I'm not at home at the moment but from memory the logo "THK" is in the label.  I found the website here.  Again, working from memory, I think I have 15, 5, 3.5, 1, 0.5 and maybe 0.25µ pastes, but I only ever use the 1µ one. 

My honing process is simple, SJ at the sharpened angle then 1µ diamond paste on the rock hard felt wheel, from 0.5 to 2.5° above the angle, depending on the steel.    This usually gets me around 100-105 BESS.  I'm not after the final 5% of sharpness that some are.

Rick

Brilliant thanks, I just ordered 2 pots of the 1 micron, 2 dollars shipping to the UK, £13! wow I should look at some of this other stuff they sell, cheap as chips!

[van]

  No, they are in the public domain 

[RickKrung]

In 2018 Knife Grinders I recommend using this sequence on Tormek leather wheels:
- leather wheel with Tormek paste composite
- 1 micron composite leather wheel (with angle increment)
- leather wheel with chromium oxide composite + 0.25 micron
using THK diamond pastes (which I still use)
Next, he recommended using the rock hard felt wheel with diamond spray and an alcohol based suspension as you can see on his site, and it's for sale.

2018 was about when Vadim first introduced his deburring book, which is now in its 5th edition and many of his recommendations have evolved.  I don't recall exactly when it was, but the process I cited and routinely use was the result of recommendations Vadim made directly to me in personal conversation.  It is consistent with his current process for certain steels, the ones I typically encounter, including my own.  In my process, use of the SJ wheel is comparable to the 3-6µ honing substrate step.


Irrespective of any of this, I adhere to the belief that it is incumbent on each of us to study and evaluate all available information about processes, such as sharpening, evaluate it and decide for ourselves the course that best suits our needs, the converse of which is to blindly follow someone else's dictums. 

Rick

[van]

Obviously! you always try to learn from those who know more than you. Then everyone makes their own choices and considerations. Everything is constantly evolving, in every sector.

[ABall]

I think we can all agree felt is the way to go if you want to completely remove the burr/wire edge, certainly for a novice like me anyway. I just sharpened one of my Globals, I didnt bother with grading to 1000grit, just wanted a quick sharp job. I wasnt going to bother with the felt and I thought I had completely removed the burr with the leather honing wheel, the knife felt extremely sharp on my fingers. Then I checked it with the Kingmass and I was surprised to see bits of wire on the edge still, a couple of days ago I would of stopped there but I thought, to hell with it lets see if the felt does the job..... I tried on 1.6 higher, still a little wire, 2.4 higher and bingo, completely clean along the full length. I will probably adopt this for all my kitchen knives for now, no need for the SJ or re grading the SG, I think the Felt wheel and little Loupe has given new life to the Tormek!

Alan.

[Ken S]

Alan,
When I was reviewing CBN wheels for the forum several years ago (pre diamond wheel days), I tried sharpening a chisel going directly from the 80 grit wheel to the leather honing wheel. The result surprised me. BESS was not bad, somewhere in the high 100s as I vaguely recall. The scratch pattern left on the bevel was not bad, either. As a placebo test, I then sharpened an identical chisel using the traditional three step Tormek technique with the SG-250. The result was noticeably better, both visually and BESS wise, the BESS reading being 100. (My BESS readings were handheld and somewhat primitive.

Since then, I always use the middle, SG graded fine step. It was a good learning experiment. Incidentally, right off the 80 grit wheel alone, a chisel ground with the wheel turning into the edge cut faster, but left a BESS around 450. The chisel with the wheel trailing the edge cut slower, but left a BESS about 100 points better.

Ken

[ABall]

Alan,
When I was reviewing CBN wheels for the forum several years ago (pre diamond wheel days), I tried sharpening a chisel going directly from the 80 grit wheel to the leather honing wheel. The result surprised me. BESS was not bad, somewhere in the high 100s as I vaguely recall. The scratch pattern left on the bevel was not bad, either. As a placebo test, I then sharpened an identical chisel using the traditional three step Tormek technique with the SG-250. The result was noticeably better, both visually and BESS wise, the BESS reading being 100. (My BESS readings were handheld and somewhat primitive.

Since then, I always use the middle, SG graded fine step. It was a good learning experiment. Incidentally, right off the 80 grit wheel alone, a chisel ground with the wheel turning into the edge cut faster, but left a BESS around 450. The chisel with the wheel trailing the edge cut slower, but left a BESS about 100 points better.

Ken

This morning I read a thread on Bessex that Grepper kindly linked to regarding microscopes, he went into great effort to explain his reason for preferring a toothy grind to a smooth grind. He suggests this isnt the best way for certain tools, IE chisels for one. This is what I have managed to glean from all the experts here so far.

-staying with a lower grit size will yield an edge that rips through soft skin for longer but will not produce the highest BESS score. (note: there is an ideal margin, seems to be between 120-220)
-push tools are exempt from above. (sushi blades etc)
-the leather honing wheel is not the tool for de-rooting, felt is the tool for this.
-if the edge is properly de-rooted it should last as long if not longer so there is no need for a toothy grind, we can have our cake....... (there is no evidence to prove this yet but it makes sense)

De-rooting seems to be a term invented by Vadim and it appears to to be an important step beyond deburring, or is he just trying to sell felt wheels...... (I dont believe he is) Of course their will be people who disagree, maybe they will comment.

Alan

[Ken S]

In 2018 Knife Grinders I recommend using this sequence on Tormek leather wheels:
- leather wheel with Tormek paste composite
- 1 micron composite leather wheel (with angle increment)
- leather wheel with chromium oxide composite + 0.25 micron
using THK diamond pastes (which I still use)
Next, he recommended using the rock hard felt wheel with diamond spray and an alcohol based suspension as you can see on his site, and it's for sale.

While our species has been using and sharpening rocks and tools for hundreds of millenia, the use of felt wheels and diamonds were unknown for the Tormek when I started using the Tormek ten years ago. In that context, i am not surprised that this rapidly evolving technology has changed since 2018. As I write this, I am uncomfortable that I do not feel I fully understand the post. Please do not misinterpret these observations as criticism. I accept that things have changed since 2018, and will hopefully continue to change. I have accepted that my two original Tormek diamond wheels (DWC-200 and DWF-200) are already outdated, as are three of my CBN wheels. I hope the evolution will continue.

Onward and upward.

Ken 

[bgtklbx]

To all the rock hard felt people, how much pressure do you use? I have the "proper" RHF and use the 1 micron spray...but for some reason I don't have the kind of results I read about on this forum. I use a very light pressure, basically just the weight of the knife itself. I have  BESS tested and usually see a decrease in sharpness. For information I might go from cbn 400 to 1000 and then debur on the 250 mm leather wheel from Hanns. Usually 1 degree higher. At that point I'm happy with the results. BUT if I decide to get sharper on the RGF...it's worse??

[RickKrung]

To all the rock hard felt people, how much pressure do you use? I have the "proper" RHF and use the 1 micron spray...but for some reason I don't have the kind of results I read about on this forum. I use a very light pressure, basically just the weight of the knife itself. I have  BESS tested and usually see a decrease in sharpness. For information I might go from cbn 400 to 1000 and then debur on the 250 mm leather wheel from Hanns. Usually 1 degree higher. At that point I'm happy with the results. BUT if I decide to get sharper on the RGF...it's worse??

Michael,

I'm not clear on your process, so it is hard to comment.  I am not familiar with the 250mm leather honing wheel (but it should not be much different than the standard Tormek wheel) and it is not clear what honing compound/grit you are using on it.  It is also not clear to me what your process is for using the felt wheel, when you are trying "to get sharper".  What compound/grit and what angle settings/control?  From your sentence it does sound like you use the 1µ diamond spray on the RKF, but tell us more about that process, please.

Rick

[ABall]

To all the rock hard felt people, how much pressure do you use? I have the "proper" RHF and use the 1 micron spray...but for some reason I don't have the kind of results I read about on this forum. I use a very light pressure, basically just the weight of the knife itself. I have  BESS tested and usually see a decrease in sharpness. For information I might go from cbn 400 to 1000 and then debur on the 250 mm leather wheel from Hanns. Usually 1 degree higher. At that point I'm happy with the results. BUT if I decide to get sharper on the RGF...it's worse??

There is evidence found by Knife Grinders that you deburr at exact angle on the leather wheel then increase the angle on the felt wheel, this takes a little trial and error, I've used a microscope and found the final burr only removed by increasing the angle, this depends on a positive or negative burr I think, knife Grinders have some vids on youtube showing the same issue you have had.
Do give all the info Rick mentioned though as you dont mention anything like using FVB etc.

Alan.