Knife Sharpening - Blade Angle Database

[OrangeBeachReb]

I have searched within the group here and searched the company page for Tramontina knives for the answer for their recommended sharpening angle.  No luck.  I've also searched Google and Facebook groups and cannot find.  I'm assuming it's a standard 20 degrees as it's a German-style knife.  Two questions:

1 - I recall there was a linked database that Tormek is building on blade sharpening angles.  I've searched on here for that and cannot find.  Anyone have that link?

2 - I've been sharpening with Spyderco and I've likely "adjusted" the angle over the years because of my lack of accuracy.  Do you all recommend sharpening at the recommended angle per their website and, in essence, re-profile it?  If I use the "marker" method, I'm fearful that each side of the blade may be a different angle due to my lack of accuracy.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

[RickKrung]

Chris,

I tried getting on to the Tramontina web site and could not.  Sometimes bevel angles are not stated and when they are, you don't know, necessarily what the angle means, whether it is single sided or included.  Case in point, I recently had a knife from a friend, presented to me in the box it came it.  I looked it up and found 20º.  No indication of included or single sided.  So, I emailed them, in their "contact us" web form.  Turns out that is number is single-sided.  Makes sense, I've not heard of any stock blades that come 20º included angle, but I've sharpened some to that. 

I know nothing of the angle database.

Rick

[OrangeBeachReb]

Sorry, to clarify, when I said 20 I meant 40 total.  What do you think about one of these guides?

Richard Kell Brass Bevel Gauge - https://www.bladehq.com/item--Richard-Kell-Solid-Brass-Bevel--16412

[RickKrung]

...snip...
Richard Kell Brass Bevel Gauge - https://www.bladehq.com/item--Richard-Kell-Solid-Brass-Bevel--16412

Might be useful for chisels.  Too hard to read for knives, in my view.  Bevels are typically too small to get very good readings. 

Did you notice they are out of stock.  Found some that "appear" to be available elsewhere, but when the manufacturer is out of stock, I take caution. 

I think the "black marker" method can't be beat for matching an existing angle, the only thing that gauge would be useful for.  If a bevel is rounded over, due to successive steelings or non-angle controlled sharpenings, you are flying blind with any gauge. 

Rick

[OrangeBeachReb]

That makes sense....

[cbwx34]

I have searched within the group here and searched the company page for Tramontina knives for the answer for their recommended sharpening angle.  No luck.  I've also searched Google and Facebook groups and cannot find.  I'm assuming it's a standard 20 degrees as it's a German-style knife.  Two questions:

1 - I recall there was a linked database that Tormek is building on blade sharpening angles.  I've searched on here for that and cannot find.  Anyone have that link?

2 - I've been sharpening with Spyderco and I've likely "adjusted" the angle over the years because of my lack of accuracy.  Do you all recommend sharpening at the recommended angle per their website and, in essence, re-profile it?  If I use the "marker" method, I'm fearful that each side of the blade may be a different angle due to my lack of accuracy.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

The data is here.... 

https://www.tormek.com/media/3018720/tormek-knife-sharpening-angles-manufacturer-s-recommendations.pdf

... my .02 use it with a grain of salt.  I've found that what a manufacturer says vs. what the knife is actually sharpened at... don't always agree.

To answer your 2nd question... yes, I would reprofile the knife. 

[OrangeBeachReb]

Exactly what I was looking for in both the PDF and the re-profile answer.  While I'm waiting for my T4, what is the best way to remember the angle, settings, etc for each knife?

[BobD]

I bought the Richard Kell one many years ago.
There have been some good points on the shortcoming of these type of devices.
The biggest problem I had is how large the spaces are tapered down to. They do not accommodate thin blades. I just checked to give an example...

The smallest measurable angle is 15⁰ but anything under 20 thou slides right through
The 17.5⁰ angle let's my 24 thou feeler gauge hit the back
They get progressively wider very quickly

[OrangeBeachReb]

I am waiting on the T4 and it's amazing that Tormek would not provide a angle tool that is reliable for kitchen knives. Yet, there are third-party "inventors" who provide these things such as the angle tool in the YouTube video I posted above.

Should I just go ahead and order that so I can use my machine when I get it?  I think, because I don't have the machine yet, the rubber band trick is very confusing to me. I'm sure it is more accurate but right now I just want to be able to use my machine and make sure my bar is correct.

[Ken S]

I recently spent a day and a half with a Tormek knife and chisel master. During thattime, he sharpened numerous knives using traditional Tormek technique using the black marker, Anglemaster, and handheld leather honing wheel. His results were consistently sharp. I consider the standard Tormek tools quite reliable for kitchen knives.

Use the traditional Tormek technique for a year. At that point, you can form your opinion on your own experience.

Ken

[RichColvin]

Chris,

I've documented what I and others have found works best.  It is here:  http://sharpeninghandbook.info/index-KN.html

Good luck.

Kind regards,
Rich

[OrangeBeachReb]

Interesting, and thank you, but Good Lord... as I'm reading about tools to help sharpen knives with advanced math just to get the angle, it looks daunting.  I'm amazed that the machine, as shipped, does not allow you to set the correct angle.  However, the Tormek videos on YouTube (which I've watched all of them) makes it look easy to set your angle on your knife.  Is there a disconnect or does Tormek conveniently ignore this major flaw?

[John_B]

Interesting, and thank you, but Good Lord... as I'm reading about tools to help sharpen knives with advanced math just to get the angle, it looks daunting.  I'm amazed that the machine, as shipped, does not allow you to set the correct angle.  However, the Tormek videos on YouTube (which I've watched all of them) makes it look easy to set your angle on your knife.  Is there a disconnect or does Tormek conveniently ignore this major flaw?

I would not consider it a flaw on Tormek's part. Tormek machines have been available for many years in a variety of models. The latest for general use are the T-4 and T-8. In the Tormek timeline the use of math to determine sharpening angles is relatively new. It came out of a desire to achieve sharpness that can be compared to razor blades. These results are obtainable by carefully controlling the angle when sharpening and honing. Additional honing techniques using non Tormek wheels and materials have also been developed towards this end. I would venture that in the Tormek world less than 1% of the users employ these techniques for knives. Using the techniques shown in the Tormek videos you can achieve sharpness better than most knives out of the box. I suggest that you learn to do this before venturing into the ultra sharp arena. The techniques you learn doing this will be usable down the road. Also most sharpeners only want to sharpen a knife at its existing angle. For this the marker method works best and it is often demonstrated by Tormek. If you are a knife maker or want to reprofile a knife some reason the software comes inhandy.

[OrangeBeachReb]

Thank you for the reply and now it makes sense.  This is helpful and makes me feel better.  Razor Blade sharp isnt ideal for a working kitchen knife anyways because it'll get dull faster - as you all well know. 

Again, thanks.

[John_B]

Thank you for the reply and now it makes sense.  This is helpful and makes me feel better.  Razor Blade sharp isnt ideal for a working kitchen knife anyways because it'll get dull faster - as you all well know. 

Again, thanks.

This is actually one of the myths that is common in the knife world.

Take 2 knives and sharpen one until it is razor sharp and the other identical knife is out of the box sharp.

Using the common BESS sharpening scale the razor sharp blade would register perhaps 80. The out of the box sharp knife will be around 300.

Now slice raw steak with each.  The razor sharp blade will start to dull from use and after a lot of cutting it will approach the out of box knife. Now take the other knife and repeat the test cutting meat the same number of times. Both knives qill dull but the sharper knife's edge will neot get duller than the out of box one if you use an equal number of cuts. The decrease in sharpness will eventuall reach a point with both knives where they are unusable, however, the razor sharp one will have had many more cuts.