Advice for 10 inch paper wheels

[Antz]

Hi everyone,  I'm new to this forum but I've been reading a lot of great posts and learning a lot. I've recently started sharpening professionally in Hawaii (not a lot of sharpeners out here). I'm very skilled with stones and that's how I was doing it for a good while. I recently got a Tormek T8 with hand tool kit and a six inch buffer with 8 inch paper wheels. So far I've sharpened about 30 plus knives in first week of my new set up with AMAZING results. But I was thinking about using 10 inch paper wheels instead of 8 inch paper wheels to better match the tormek wheel size. Was wondering if anyone had a good buffer to recommend or is it fine to run them on my 6 inch buffer? And advice would be appreciated.

Thanks, Antz

[wootz]

10" paper wheels on an 8" buffer/grinder give you more room between the two wheels and you can hone long knives.
With smaller grinders, long knives will be bumping into the 2nd wheel, i.e. 6" grinder will limit your setup to short and medium knives.

However, you get the best sharpness, when the paper wheel diameter is close to your Tormek wheel, so for T-8 and T-7 you should go for 10" paper wheel, while for T-4 the 8" paper wheel.

Important that the buffer/grinder must be half-speed, in Europe it is 1425 RPM (not the standard 2850), and have better than average bearings, well balanced. On cheap grinders the wheels wobble and hammer the blade like crazy, as if they are out of round, even though they are not.

We've tried several PW brands, and "Razor Sharp Edgemaking System" are the best - they are denser, perfectly round and balanced, smooth, fray less and last. See the Dealers page on their website.
http://nextgen.sharpeningwheels.com/
Tell them you need only slotted paper wheels, not the kit. For knife honing, we use only slotted paper wheels.

[van]

As always "Wootz" gave you the best advice for a perfect sharpening.
Unfortunately in Europe it's hard to find a mola with those RPM features, all the ones I've found have an RPM of 2850 or more. I'm still searching.
Greetings.
Van

[Antz]

Thanks Wootz for the reply and advice, I'll definitely look into getting a dedicated slow speed 8 inch grinder/buffer to run the 10 inch PW's. I also just wanted to say that I watched a bunch of your YouTube vids and that's what actually got me interested in getting a tormek in the first place, so for you to be the first person to respond to my first post is awesome! I hope with more experience on my new setup I can start contributing to this forum, but for now I appreciate all the advice and tips. . 

Van, I know what you mean all I can find is a slow speed Rikon grinder in 8 inch. I was hoping I could find a buffer as the arms are usually a little longer. But if that's my only choice I'll have to go with it until something else presents itself. Thanks for your reply!

Also any thoughts on the buffing compound? Should I use cbn or diamond paste instead of the supplied white compound? Thanks again for the reply's!

Antz

[Ken S]

Wootz,

Would it be practical to use the ten inch paper wheels (or fekt wheels) with a Tormek instead of a buffer?

I realize a high speed buffer is recommended to melt the wax with the grinding abrasive. (We norlally do this operation with the SG graded fine,) However, if the slower speed of the Tormek was adequate to achieve deburring, the operation could be carried out without the expense and space needed for a second machine. It would also be done cooler. Most of us do not have the time constraints of a professional sharpening service. The odd extra minute would not be critical.

Incidentally, with the water trough removed, a ten inch paper or felt wheel will work with a T4 or T2. The T4 motor also produces very slightly higher RPM, 120 instead of 90 or 100 (probably no big deal).

Ken

[Al]

Hi Antz
Welcome to the forum
You may be able to get a Palmgren-9682107 8" Variable speed grinder and I think Jet also does a variable speed one although the jet is more expensive
We have the same problem in New Zealand basically zip low speed grinders
I was about to import a Palmgren but managed to find a Macma 10" buffer with 2 speeds the low one being 1750 rpm. Even though it is 10" the shaft protrudes well past the motor housing (200mm) and the wheels are 50 mm higher than the housing
Wootz configured the supports to suit this machine and with his software I'm getting exceptional results
Keep us informed with what you end up doing

[Antz]

Thanks Al! I just looked it up and the Palmgren-9682107 8" Variable speed grinder looks like the perfect solution for me. Great advice, thanks.

Also I got a question about setting up the universal support for PW and using Wootz grinding angle setter software. Is there a specific distance from the wheel that the BGM-100 needs to be mounted? As I understand it I would mount it probably on a block of wood in the vertical position but I'm wondering about the distance from the wheel to keep the software accurate. (Not sure if I'm explaining my question well)

Thanks

[Al]

Yes you are correct
Wootz supplies all the mounting information

[Al]

Just a note on the grinder
Most flanges on grinders that hold the wheels are just pressed steel and useless
You will need to get some solid steel ones turned up
I got a local engineer to do this for me after Wootz told me about this

[Antz]

Thanks Al, I'll look into that. One of my coworkers could probably make some. I work full time for a engineering/maintenance department and we have journeymen tradesmen (carpenters, welders, pipe fitters, plumbers) we don't have a machinist though but we have the equipment so I might be able to fabricate something or have someone do it for me.

Thanks
Antz

[Antz]

Well it seems like it will be easier for me to just purchase some precision flanges. Anyone have any experience with these?
https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/97/6198/Raptor-Grinding-Wheel-Washers-2-Pack
Do you guys think these would be worth purchasing? I know they are "washers" and not "flanges" but do you think they will serve the purpose better than the stock flimsy flanges? After Al pointed this out to me I noticed mine were not flat at all causing slight wobble. I was able to semi fix the problem by loosening the nut and turning the flanges 1/8 turn at a time and retightening the nut until I got it where it had "the least" amount of wobble.

Thanks
Antz

Update: Upon further research I realized I need "recessed" flanges and not washers.

[John_B]

This is one thing I miss having just entered retirement. We had a fully equipped machine and metal working shop for prototype work. Once you had access by demonstrating that you were competent on the machines you could come in over the weekend or evenings with your metal and make anything you needed. I need to find a new place for little projects.

[Ken S]

John,

You need to find a young home machinist struggling to support his hobby with family responsibilities. In return to access to his shop, you can donate some needed tools and experience. You would both benefit.   

Ken

[Ken S]

As forum members, we do not have some of the constraints Tormek engineers must deal with. Designing my kenjig (an ongoing project), I have no legal worries. I have never sold one, nor do I want to. I have freely and frequently acknowledged my appreciation for Dutchman's math tables, the foundation of the kenjig. I am also delighted when innovative members "clon" it and add their own ideas.

Originally, I had hoped that Tormek might choose to add the kenjig (then called the KS-150, knife setting  tool, 150mm long) to the product line). I have since realized why Tormek would not do that. In addition to legal actions, Tormek would have to deal with unrealistic customer expectations. I needed a special kenjig to set my Chinese cleaver. This project involved a piece of scrap cardboard and less than five minutes. After sharpening my cleaver, I wished I had used 10 or 12 degrees instead of 15. No big deal, just another scrap of cardboard and a minute or two. Even the fancy ones, made of Baltic birch plywood, are made of cut offs in very short time. If I can't find my jig, it is quicker to make a new one than hunt for it. I always recommend new jig users start with a cardboard prototype to try it. Although this ephemeral set up is quite comfortable for me, Tormek customers would expect it to last "forever" and be adjustable.

Tormek must deal with many often conflicting customer expectations. The majority of Tormek customers want a knife jig which costs only $39US. They want one jig, which is "one size fits all". They want only one inexpensive tube of one size fits all honing compound and only one honing wheel, as well as one grinding wheel. They would prefer to have only one quick step sharpening which would be mastered by the first knife.

Watching the outstanding videos of our members such as Wootz and Sharpco, we realize that world class sharpening results do not happen cheaply. The sharpening results do not happen without much time learning and they do not occur in less than a minute. Tormek must balance the desire for sharp edges with the lack of patience of most of its market. It must be frustrating to realize that their machine has much untapped potential which the majority of users do not have the patience to develop.

I applaud our pioneering members who have been developing these innovative jigs for curved knife blades. We all benefit from their efforts.

Ken