Did you find the Tormek T8 packaging lacking?

[HM]

Hello folks,

This is my first post on the forum. I recently treated myself to a new Tormek T8 with a few of it's accessories. I have been using a dry bench grinder so far, and was about done with all the dust and shop-made jigs. I wanted something safer, less noisy, and more accurate.

However, when I opened my brand new T8, I was greeted with what you see in the photos below. There were pieces of styrofoam and black marks on the stone wheel. The plastic tray was all scuffed up. And the T8 body had some marks on it as well.

Looking at the packing more closely, I think I have an idea of what happened. The styrofoam tray above the "stone wheel + t8 unit" broke (see photos below). It must have pushed down on the plastic tray. The way Tormek packages its system is such that the plastic tray, the weakest part of the system, is placed on stop of the grinding wheel with only a small somewhat-thin piece of styrofoam separating both parts!

I think the Tormek packaging leaves something to be desired. The stone wheel should be wrapped and packaged either entirely separately or in an enough styrofoam to protect it and the rest of the system sufficiently.

I was considering keeping the machine, if I could confirm these were all cosmetic issues and would not affect the machine performance. But I was not feeling happy at all. Why should I accept a new machine in this condition. I contacted Tormek support which directed me to contact the site I purchased the machine from. I contacted Amazon and they immediately accepted a return, scheduled a pickup time and even gave me a $20 discount for my troubles.

I went ahead and purchased another T8 system. The new unit came out better but still had some slight marks on the plastic tray from touching the stone and the stone still had some black streaks on it. In fact, even the Tormek official "Getting Started" video shows the stone and tray had some marks on them! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d8jcG6bzJ4

I know that Tormek is one of the highest rated sharpening systems out there. But if I were to rate their packaging, it would be 3/5 
I understand the need for smaller more compact packaging. But there must be a better way than the current design, in my opinion.

Anyways, sorry for the long post. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this topic. How did you guys find the Tormek packaging on your system?

[Ken S]

Tormek is a five out of five company and product. Unpacking Tormek products generally reminds me of unpacking Apple computer products. It should be a pleasant experience. You did the right thing in sending the first T8 back. You purchased top quality products and you deserve top quality product satisfaction.

As a practical solution, I would suggest contacting support and Amazon again and suggest, if all of the other parts arrived in excellent condition, that they ship you a new wheel and water trough. These should come boxed separately. This may be a matter that you settle with Amazon, however, the brand name on the product is Tormek and Tormek support should be involved. I have full faith in Tormek.

Please post your results, regardless of the outcome.

Ken

ps My Tormek Work Station arrived dented in shipping. It was a large package and weighed 93 pounds. It was double boxed, however, the outer box had no space or shock protective packing. I assume it was dropped during shipping. I should have refused to accept it, but did not. I banged out the dent with a hammer and a block of wood. It works, but looks like a scratch and dent special. I still have a bad taste in the mouth with it.

Don't do what I did. Do better.

I have some knowledge of the stage of the shipping industry. While some companies are commendable with their shipping procedures, much of the industry is lacking. The packing problems extend well beyond Tormek. Most damage happens between the dealer and the customer. In my opinion, the safest way to purchase something like a grinding wheel is to pick it up directly at the dealer's brick and mortar facility.

[HM]

Thanks Ken for responding.

Tormek is a five out of five company and product.

Agreed. I have not had the pleasure of using their product for long but everyone seems to highly rate them. My comments were merely on the discrepancy I felt between the product quality and packaging.

I still have a bad taste in the mouth with it.

Exactly what I was worried about, even though I really wanted to keep it as I hate waiting for shipments to arrive. Thankfully, the replacement was in a much better condition. I have been using it for a couple of days.

In my opinion, the safest way to purchase something like a grinding wheel is to pick it up directly at the dealer's brick and mortar facility.

Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, no resellers are within my area as far as I could tell from tormek reseller page and a quick online search 

I would love if Tormek was to pack the stone wheel separately even when buying the whole system. But I am obviously not aware of the logistics that would come with such a change.

[jeffs55]

"But I am obviously not aware of the logistics that would come with such a change." Regarding better packaging for the grinding wheel.

IMHO the logistics change would be to ship in a bigger box. Simple and I do not even have a college education.

[Ken S]

I have high expectations for Tormek. However, I do not expect Tormek to change the business climate. A T8 weighs over thirty pounds (15 kilos). The basic box is fairly large. If that box was made "bulletproof" and placed in a well padded larger box, I would estimate possible shipping within the continental US (to a residence) at around $30 to $40US. If one dealer sells the T8 at the suggested retail price, plus $35 packing and shipping, with very careful packing, and another dealer sells it with "free shipping", who gets the order?

Priority mail or ground service for a small, under two pound package, seems like a fair candidate for free shipping. Asking a dealer to absorb the cost of repacking and shipping a thirty pound package is asking a lot.

I have shipped a few packages with valuable photo equipment, large, insured, and heavy. $40 per package is not unusual. Proper shipping is expensive. It is a large problem.

Ken

[GeoTech]

Buying from Amazon is hit or miss with their packaging or handling of merchandise. I swear that sometimes the employees are either rushed or bored and it is reflected on how they package items for shipment.

[Ken S]

I don't disagree with the "rushed or bored" comment, although I consider Amazon just one of many players in the problem. We are paying a price for two day,free shipping.

Ken

[HM]

I will just add that the package itself arrived in what appears to be a great condition. Actually that's why I included the first photo. You can see the box does not have any dents, scratches, etc.

To Ken's point about cost of shipping, I wonder how that plays out vs the cost associated with returns due to damage in transit. If a seller can save $30 on shipping but ends up with 10% returns, is it an overall win or loss. I am sure big estore sellers have figured this stuff out.

From the comments so far, I am guessing what happened in my case is not that common which is a good sign. I was originally wondering if with this packing design, this would be a more common issue (stone scratching plastic tray & sharpener body).

[Ken S]

Good point, about shipping damage not being all that common. While my Tormek work station was dented, in context, four Tormeks, nine grinding wheels and numerous jigs and accessories have arrived undamaged. Sometimes the packing is lean, however, zinc is a hearty species.

I hope your situation will have a happy conclusion. Do keep us posted.

Ken

[HM]

Thanks Ken. As I mentioned earlier, I did get a replacement which arrived to me in a good shape. I have been using my new T8 for a few days now

I am very happy with it so far. I got a couple of chisels and knifes sharpened already. Not as easy as it looks in these youtube videos, I gotta say . I can see now that there is a technique to it and a learning curve ahead.

Overall, I would say a happy conclusion has been reached!

[Ricko]

HM, good honest posts, thank you! I like your comment, "Not as easy as it looks in these youtube videos, I gotta say ." This confirms all the suspicions I've had as to why so many folks felt it necessary to cobble together some kind of secondary jig to be used with those supplied by the manufacturer, in order to obtain accuracy and consistency in sharpening. I'd like to get back with you in 6 months to see if you still have that initial excitement with your machine, if you still feel it was a good purchase, and if that steep learning curve has flattened out some for you. 

[Ken S]

HM,

I am pleased that you are happy with your new Tormek. I would draw a few conclusions from reading your posts:

1) You have enough education to have become fluent in writing words, in this case the English language.

2) You have achieved proficiency with the computer you are using.

3) You have developed enough job related skills to provide living space for you and your Tormek. These skills probably include learnng to drive a vehicle to commute to work.

We have been these fairly steep learning curve life skills for long enough that they seem second nature. In the big picture, how complicated is learning to use a Tormek?

I believe learning new skills benefits us. I am presently learning woodturning. The common thread among good teachers is Practice. I wrote the tips and technique post (anchored at the top of the general Tormek questions) as a suggested method of efficient learning practice. The chisel is probably the easiest tool to sharpen. Focused practice sharpening a chisel can teach you how to use the Tormek, even if you are only interested in sharpening knives. With a good method and some practice, the learning curve is neither steep nor long.

I predict that in six months you will have developed enough skill reservoir to be even more happy with your Tormek. Nine years in, I am still fascinated and learning.

Ricko,

I think I can speak with some experience as one who has "cobbled together" several jigs for the Tormek. Using the Tormek "as is", a sharpener who has mastered the basic skills should be able to sharpen a regular kitchen knife to a keener edge than when it left the factory. The two earliest forum made tools that I remember are the small platform developed by Herman and the knife setting tool (kenjig). Small knives could always be sharpened with the Tormek, either freehand or by using the Torlock platform. Bcause of its size, the Torlock platform must be repositioned after sharpening one bevel. Herman's platform  allows both bevels with no repositioning. It extends the range of knives which can be sharpened in a more controlled manner.

The kenjig and later versions may look very simple, however, they are based on Dutchman's very solid math tables. The Tormek is a continually evolving technology. Some of the evolution originates in Sweden; some of it starts with us cobblers. I consider both of equal importance.

Do not expect the Tormek to produce the same results as an industrial surface grinder costing many thousands of dollars. It was never designed for that. Do expect it, with skilled hands, to produce very sharp edges consistently. I follow the used Tormek market. If, by chance, you should decide that you and the Tormek are not well matched, with the brisk used market, you can easily sell your Tormek and recover most of your investment.

Ken

[RichColvin]

All,

I have used a Tormek for about 20 years.  I have built secondary jigs for only two reasons :

• Knives :  I feel the platform jig works extremely well when resharpening lots of knives the same way, and the HanJig as it makes setting the distance of the USB easier (like using the TTS-100 for turning tools).  I like using Tormek SVM knife jigs, but have added the collar-based pivoting to it, and later the pin point jig (Rick Krung's awesome adapter) to the SVM knife jigs.  These just make it easier to use the Tormek jig for sharpening the curved part of a knife.  But, for me, the SVM works fine.
• Where there is no Tormek jig.  Examples include one for sharpening rotary cutters, one for fly cutters (for my rose engine lathe), and one for sharpening metal lathe bits.

And I must add, I only added those jigs / jig modifications in the past 4 or 5 years.  I used the standard, out-of-the-box stuff for years and found it quite acceptable.

Kind regards,
Rich

[Ricko]

Ken, I do not own a Tormek at this time. I'm in the process of doing my homework to see it it is a machine I would be happy owning. I would question your comment in regards to the brisk resale of used machines. Why are folks so quick to give up their machines if they're that good at what they do?

[HM]

Thanks, Ken. I don't mind learning to use the Tormek. In fact I enjoy learning new skills.

Ricko, let me expand on the ease of use comment I made, since you are considering purchasing a Tormek. Keep in mind this is my own experience. For knife sharpening, the knife jig is easy to setup and holds the knife well. It helped with setting the right "bevel anglel and "distance to stone". Here is the tricky part. While the jig controls the distance to stone, it allows for up and down movement. In fact, this is how you get the tip sharpened: by lifting your hand up to follow the edge shape. But given I don't have a steady hand, as I move the knife side to side, my hand moves slightly up and down. So, the knife does not stay totally flat on the stone the whole way. This resulted in uneven edge on the first knife I sharpeneded. I think as I continue to use it, I will get the hang of it. But if you watch the youtube videos now, you will notice how steady the user hand is as they sharpen the knife. That's a skill I don't have yet  None of the additional jigs other folks made for knifes would help me here as I am not dealing with smaller knives, or very convex knifes.

For chisels, it's a lot easier to sharpen as the jig controls almost all aspects. However, the edge I got in my practice chisel was not square. The jig allows for minor adjustments to get a square edge. But these knobs came in slightly loose on mine. I think I tightened them to a non-square value. I have been reading on the forum here on what is the easiest way to get it dead square. There are a few methods. But that's again something I will need to learn how to do. You also lose the squareness of the jig whenever you adjust these knobs to, say, get a convex plane blade sharpened. There are no preset or snap-on settings on the chisel jig to get it back to square quickly (unlike the turning gouge jigs which have presets).

You get the idea. There are some nuances to getting proficient at using this system and its jigs. One final thought I would like to add. The reason I got the Tormek is not necessarily the ease of use but rather the fact it's cleaner, safer, and much quieter than the alternative (dry grinders in my case). Also, it's versatility and repeatability. I would never dare try to sharpen a knife on a dry grinder. Turning tools also are a pain to sharpen free hand. The Tormek solves these problems for me.

I hope this helps you make an informed decision. The Tormek is quite an investment and I would hate for anyone to get buyer's remorse after acquiring one.