Missed Opportunity?

[cbwx34]

So... Tormek has a new video.... "How to Sharpen Hunting Knives... with the Tormek T-4..."

Demonstrating with this knife...



... and they're going to demo the AngleMaster... a golden opportunity to show how to adjust for blade taper...



.... when, what the....  suddenly a different knife? 



Oh well........   

[cbwx34]

And why I say lifting doesn't always work... here's the instructions....



... but looks like a bit of Sharpie left over in the belly to tip area...



... bit of a narrow bevel in the belly/tip area?  You decide...



... which is why I'm on the "pivot train", and use the Modified Stop Collar. 
(p.s.  They suddenly switched back to the 1st knife).... 

[wanderingwhittler]

Thanks for posting the video. I agree it would have been nice to talk about adjusting for blade taper.

I'm not ready to take up a position on the lift-pivot continuum, but, a plus I see about this video with respect to the lift guidance is that it's the best demonstration I've seen so far of demonstrating a lift with no pivot.

With many other videos that talk about lifting, it's easy for me to perceive a bit of a pivot near the tip, whether it's actually there or not. Around 1:27, my imagination can almost convince me there's a hint of a pivot there. But, when he's working on the other side, beginning around 1:38, it's crystal clear to me that there's no pivot.

[marie]

So... Tormek has a new video.... "How to Sharpen Hunting Knives... with the Tormek T-4..."

Demonstrating with this knife...



... and they're going to demo the AngleMaster... a golden opportunity to show how to adjust for blade taper...



.... when, what the....  suddenly a different knife? 



Oh well........   

Hi cbwx34,

We're showing two different ways of setting the angle, therefore there are two different knives in that part of the video

Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Communications manager

[Ken S]

Hi, Marie. Thanks for posting.

I watched the video several times. I thought it was well done. I thought the use of English subtitles was clever. They clearly explained the video part. Unlike a lot of subtitles, the white text against a black background and plain but very legible font made the text very easy to read. That scores a lot of points with me! The subtitle technique also strikes me as being easy and cost effective to produce in different languages, another good point.

Please feel free to correct me if I misinterpret the marketing focus of this video. I see the target market as persons considering the purchase of a Tormek primarily to sharpen hunting knives. The video presents basic hunting knife sharpening very well. I think the T4 Bushcraft Edition was an ideal choice for that purpose. The attractively priced package included a knife jig and a Mora knife, everything one would need to get started. I have often stated how much I like the compact, lightweight design of the T4. It is a good match for sharpening hunting knives.

Apple sells macbook laptops in two lines, the air series and the pro series. While the air series is perfectly suited for lighter duty on the go, the more demanding, heavier user will want the pro series. With Tormek use and videos, the forum is generally the pro crowd. We want videos from Tormek which will help train us to deal with issues like improperly ground blade curves, bolsters which need to be thinned and blade shapes requiring finesse. We need a knife video like the turner's DVD or the excellent DBS-22 video with Alan Holtham.

The basic, marketing oriented short videos Tormek produces are essential. They should be in addition to and not instead of more in depth instruction videos. We want to use our Tormeks as the versatile, professional tools they are. We need better instructional videos from Tormek.

As always, best regards,

Ken

[marie]

Ken, you are correct. As we are launching the Tormek T-4 Bushcraft package (without the Mora knife), we need marketing and instructional material for our intended audience, so they easily can see the benefits of using the Tormek system. However, this does not mean that we won't produce more in depth material further on. Video is a very great way of learning, and we hope you will find future videos more relevant for your skill improvement. Your parallel to Apple is a good point, I will keep that in mind. Thank you. 

Kindest regards,
Marie - Marketing Communications Manager

[Ken S]

Marie,

I am a great fan of the T4. I do not recall any forum posts where someone started with a T4 and then"traded up" to a T7 or T8. The Bushcraft Edition concept, including the knife jig at a discounted price, is certainly a great start for hunting knife sharpeners.

I would a single ball size bowling bag in Tormek blue with gold lettering. My black bag cost $30US new retail. It easily holds my T4 with more accessories than I need. It has a handle and a shoulder strap. It is light and compact enough to comfortably transport.

New T4 customers definitely need video coaching. I think they need a good carrying bag, also.

I eagerly await more videos.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Hi cbwx34,

We're showing two different ways of setting the angle, therefore there are two different knives in that part of the video

Kind regards,
Marie - Marketing Communications manager

Yeah.... sorry, not buying that at all.  The reason it was switched, was to use a knife with almost no taper.  Please......   

You should have switched back sooner though, since you couldn't just "raise the knife handle upwards" without also rotating ...

...
Please feel free to correct me if I misinterpret the marketing focus of this video. I see the target market as persons considering the purchase of a Tormek primarily to sharpen hunting knives. The video presents basic hunting knife sharpening very well.
...
The basic, marketing oriented short videos Tormek produces are essential. They should be in addition to and not instead of more in depth instruction videos. We want to use our Tormeks as the versatile, professional tools they are. We need better instructional videos from Tormek.

As always, best regards,

Ken

I didn't bookmark the post, but I ran across one the other day where you've been asking for better instruction videos not long after you joined the forum.  How long do you think it should be? 

Thanks for posting the video. I agree it would have been nice to talk about adjusting for blade taper.

I'm not ready to take up a position on the lift-pivot continuum, but, a plus I see about this video with respect to the lift guidance is that it's the best demonstration I've seen so far of demonstrating a lift with no pivot.

With many other videos that talk about lifting, it's easy for me to perceive a bit of a pivot near the tip, whether it's actually there or not. Around 1:27, my imagination can almost convince me there's a hint of a pivot there. But, when he's working on the other side, beginning around 1:38, it's crystal clear to me that there's no pivot.

As you can see in the above pics... merely lifting is a hard "rule" to follow.   (It's around the 2:35 time).

[GKC]

Two points:

1. Tormek seems to be one of those odd companies that doesn't devote much of its budget to documentation for the use of its product.  Other companies document the heck out of applications that .001% of users will touch; Tormek is the opposite: it leaves whole swaths of common issues untouched by instruction.  As an experienced sharpener but a newcomer to the Tormek, I am puzzled by the fact that almost all of the reliable information on advanced uses comes from forums like this one.  And it is irritating to be be struggling with an issue--or to read pages and pages of a thread with very experienced users struggling with an issue--and the Tormek support people are nowhere, or at least only occasionally sticking their heads in the door to give terse, often unhelpful comments. 

I don't know if this particular marketing video was a missed opportunity or just a different objective, but I think that Tormek's general apathy on instruction is, among other things, a serious marketing error.  Potential purchasers look to experienced users to decide whether to jump in with a sophisticated and expensive system like this.  The system has to have depth for those recommendations to happen, and depth comes from a large base of users getting a lot of different uses out of their investment.

2. Like Greg, I am not ready to express a preference on the pivot/lift issue.  So far, I have been able to get the angles and bevels I want on curved tips by lifting alone, and I like the simplicity of that.  However, I am primarily a freehand/waterstone guy, so pivoting is in my muscle memory.  As a result, I am now experimenting on my T8 with two of the pivoting jigs from this forum (the small collar and the four-stop-collar jigs) to see if I like the technique or the results better.    With that said, I am not yet convinced that I will want to pivot on the Tormek, so I also like to see the guy in this video getting pretty good results on a curved belly/tip with lifting alone.  (Or at least while trying to keep it to lifting alone.)

Gord

[Ken S]

Gord,

My observations of Tormek differ from yours. I have read and downloaded the instructions from several sharpening  systems. I have not found any other instructions which have anywhere near the depth of the Tormek Handbook. I have also not found any sharpening manufacturer´s videos on the level of Tormek's  DBS 22 video with Alan Holtham or the DVD and book of the Tormek Turner´s Information Box.

At least as important, I have not seen any outstanding innovations added by the clones. Frankly, if you examine them closely, you will find evidence of the Tormek patents which have recently expired.

The marketing video of the T4 is not a missed opportunity. It is aimed at a difference audience, those considering the purchase of a T4 for hunting knives. If the video had been done with the forum in mind, it would have failed with the intended audience.

My experiences with support have generally been very positive. Over the years I have seen support provide excellent and speedy warranty service in many parts of the world. My questions have usually been answered promptly. I say usually because I realized that when Stig was the head of support, he was literally traveling around much of the world. Email answers came from airports throughout North America and Europe. Stig knows that I understand the demands of his travel schedule.

While I feel that Tormek´s record of innovations over the years has been outstanding, at present, I do not feel that their product support has kept pace. In fairness to Tormek and the forum questions, the questions have become much more complicated in the nine years that I have been part of the forum. Both Tormek and the forum users are expecting much more of the Tormek than ever before. The Tormek is proving capable of this growth, even if the product support has been lagging.

Family obligations force me to cut this reply short. I would just say that with all our frustrations with Tormek, I do not feel it is fair to compare it negatively with other companies.

Ken

[GKC]

Ken:

I do not think our views differ as much as you have characterized them, so I have probably not been clear.  (Paradoxically, my comment about Tormek's weak instructional efforts was in part an agreement with your posts and those of others commenting on your posts on this very topic.)

The comparison I was making to instructional support was not to other sharpening systems, but to other products generally.  Software is an obvious current example, in which companies devote huge resources to documenting the performance of their products on tasks that only sophisticated users will ever need.  I use 1% of Word's or Excel's capabilities, but if I want to do something complicated, it is probably in the manual. When software companies fall down on this effort, they get pilloried in the user community.  (On sharpening systems in particular, I can note that I acquired the Wicked Edge system a few years ago and found their instructional effort and the direct involvement of the support department in user's explorations to be very good, an example I wish Tormek would follow.)

An informative instance of Tormek's approach here is the lift vs. pivot point, which I mention because as a new user I am curious about it, and I see that for years the most experienced of the participants in this forum have been experimenting and discussing it in ways that the Tormek literature has not even come close to touching. One has the sense that Tormek's engineers must have the trigonometry and physics of this topic down cold, and could provide users with a definitive analysis.  (A Tormek company manifesto on this point might be out there and I haven't found it, but that says something in itself.)  I haven't seem Tormek come into the forum to provide good theory and data to guide us. I find Tormek's own instructional material to be contradictory on the topic.

It has been commented that Tormek is trying to keep things simple so that they don't scare off potential entrants.  Perhaps that is a good marketing strategy, but I think not, because of the range of applications that can make the Tormek system much more attractive than the basic ones.  The producers of other products (ref. software again) have been pretty good about saying "If all you want to do with our product is tasks 1 and 2, our product is easy and excellent at that.  If you want to take it further, we can show you that too." 

By the way, I didn't mean to say anything about Tormek's investment in innovation, I quite agree with you on that.  And yet, on the instructional side of things--the only topic I am addressing--it might be illustrative that there are already several basic questions about the diamond stones (performance, use relative to the other wheels, etc.) that Tormek users (and doubtless potential Tormek users) are sorting out for themselves.  The company must have tons of data on these wheels, I wish it were out there to help us decide whether to buy them and how to use them when we do.

Having said all of this, I do like experimenting and making the jigs that you and others have figured out.   I already have some Kenjigs and a knife jig with a substitute platform for angle reference, and some pivoting jigs.  As with others, I will always be tinkering with whatever Tormek produces.  I just wish they would get out of their "keep it simple, stupid" mode.  It does have its place, but so does "if you want to go beyond simple...".  They have the motherlode of expertise, and I think that it could help the community find better ways to use the system.

Gord

[cbwx34]

This is one of those... "has to be answered within the quote" replies...

Gord,

My observations of Tormek differ from yours. I have read and downloaded the instructions from several sharpening  systems. I have not found any other instructions which have anywhere near the depth of the Tormek Handbook. I have also not found any sharpening manufacturer´s videos on the level of Tormek's  DBS 22 video with Alan Holtham or the DVD and book of the Tormek Turner´s Information Box.

My .02... the Handbook has "depth" because it's covering the sharpening of over a dozen different type of tools.  But pick an area, (knife sharpening in my case)... it's pretty basic.

At least as important, I have not seen any outstanding innovations added by the clones. Frankly, if you examine them closely, you will find evidence of the Tormek patents which have recently expired.

The marketing video of the T4 is not a missed opportunity. It is aimed at a difference audience, those considering the purchase of a T4 for hunting knives. If the video had been done with the forum in mind, it would have failed with the intended audience.

Look at the title of the video.  It is titled a How To sharpen a hunting knife... not a marketing video.  So, why not show How To correctly set the angle on the knife you're demonstrating everything else with?  That's why I consider this a missed opportunity.

My experiences with support have generally been very positive. Over the years I have seen support provide excellent and speedy warranty service in many parts of the world. My questions have usually been answered promptly. I say usually because I realized that when Stig was the head of support, he was literally traveling around much of the world. Email answers came from airports throughout North America and Europe. Stig knows that I understand the demands of his travel schedule.

While I feel that Tormek´s record of innovations over the years has been outstanding, at present, I do not feel that their product support has kept pace. In fairness to Tormek and the forum questions, the questions have become much more complicated in the nine years that I have been part of the forum. Both Tormek and the forum users are expecting much more of the Tormek than ever before. The Tormek is proving capable of this growth, even if the product support has been lagging.

I actually agree with this... and has been kinda my point.

Family obligations force me to cut this reply short. I would just say that with all our frustrations with Tormek, I do not feel it is fair to compare it negatively with other companies.

I'll compare it... most of the other major knife sharpening companies have much more in the way of "how-to's", video demos, etc., that go beyond the basics of sharpening.

Ken

...
Having said all of this, I do like experimenting and making the jigs that you and others have figured out.   I already have some Kenjigs and a knife jig with a substitute platform for angle reference, and some pivoting jigs.  As with others, I will always be tinkering with whatever Tormek produces.  I just wish they would get out of their "keep it simple, stupid" mode.  It does have its place, but so does "if you want to go beyond simple...".  They have the motherlode of expertise, and I think that it could help the community find better ways to use the system.

Gord

Exactly.

[Ken S]

Gord,

One of the many things I like about the forum is the climate which allows us to disagree as friends and speak honestly.

When Jeff Farris stepped down as moderator, I was under the impression that "headquarters" wanted to take a more active role with the forum. I welcomed this for two reasons. First, I thought the arrangement would give us better communication with Tormek. Second, I thought the arrangement might allow for support to share some of the product use research we have been wanting.

Neither appears to be happening to any great extent. I can understand why. First, Tormek is a very small company. The last employee count I heard was twenty.  That does not leave many extra bodies with spare time to communicate with the forum. I can only guess as to why Tormek is reluctant to discuss their product use research with us. I have the feeling that Tormek is very private with information. They have certainly been ripped off by low priced clones. Sharing information with us would make it difficult to keep that information confidential. On the other hand, denying that information to loyal customers severely hampers their Tormek mastery.

I can see where trying to operate manned training schools throughout the world would be extremely expensive. The present level of dealer knowledge is hardly satisfactory, as is the present use of woodworking shows. An hour long demonstration seminar at woodworking shows and at dealer locations would go a long way to correcting this situation.

I believe the most cost effective solution is several in depth videos. I would make them open to everyone for viewing. Some of the new hunting knife viewers will want more. We certainly want more. At present, there is no shortage of you tubes done by new Tormek wannabes who will expound on what the Tormek can not do. There are not enough well done videos by people who really understand the Tormek to show what the Tormek can do.

Tormek can and should correct that information imbalance.
Thoe handbook also needs to be updated. The coverage of the SG wheels is excellent. It was done by  Torgny Jansson. Unfortunately, Tormek has not really updated it to reflect either the SB and SJ or the new diamond wheels.

I live in hope.

Ken

[Ken S]

My my concern with the lack of in-depth instructional videos from Tormek is related to the you tubes from other sources which will replace them. With Jeff Farris and Alan Holtham, the viewer received real deal expert advice from experienced craftsmen and Tormek users. I am sure the scripts were carefully laid out and fact checked. Good salesmanship means educating the potential customer. These videos are certainly good marketing tools, however, they give the new Tormek user honest and correct information.

Well intentioned third party you tubers rarely have this level of skill and experience. Quite often the limits and difficulties projected as Tormek deficiencies are really due to their own lack of knowledge and experience. Sharpening technique is often sloppy. Disciplined technique is essential to obtain consistently good results. I question if many of the you tubers realize that.

My other concern is with misinformation. Any information which can be readily fact checked with the handbook should be checked prior to making the you tube. Experienced Tormek users can usually spot these errors. However, how would a first time newbie know?

Tormek needs to provide a solid alternative to these you tubes. Sadly, well written handbooks are no longer the preeminent source of information. Tormek has the necessary elements. They have over four decades of experience; a skilled staff including trained presenters; and a fine new studio building. If Tormek is at a loss for ideas to incorporate into videos, the forum would be very pleased to offer them.

Ken

[cbwx34]

My my concern with the lack of in-depth instructional videos from Tormek is related to the you tubes from other sources which will replace them. With Jeff Farris and Alan Holtham, the viewer received real deal expert advice from experienced craftsmen and Tormek users. I am sure the scripts were carefully laid out and fact checked. Good salesmanship means educating the potential customer. These videos are certainly good marketing tools, however, they give the new Tormek user honest and correct information.

Well intentioned third party you tubers rarely have this level of skill and experience. Quite often the limits and difficulties projected as Tormek deficiencies are really due to their own lack of knowledge and experience. Sharpening technique is often sloppy. Disciplined technique is essential to obtain consistently good results. I question if many of the you tubers realize that.

My other concern is with misinformation. Any information which can be readily fact checked with the handbook should be checked prior to making the you tube. Experienced Tormek users can usually spot these errors. However, how would a first time newbie know?

Tormek needs to provide a solid alternative to these you tubes. Sadly, well written handbooks are no longer the preeminent source of information. Tormek has the necessary elements. They have over four decades of experience; a skilled staff including trained presenters; and a fine new studio building. If Tormek is at a loss for ideas to incorporate into videos, the forum would be very pleased to offer them.

Ken

You mean like this?

https://youtu.be/6yzd8CO1G0s

Good or bad?