Another se77 out of square plane blade

[Seth]

Just got a t4 after a year of free hand sharpening.  I just could not muster the will to reset another primary bevel with sandpaper.  So a t4 and se77 were purchased.

Got everything set up, followed the directions, set the angle with the angle master, and got a burr across the back. 

To my dismay the blade was out of square by about 1/16 of an inch (pretty significant).  So I read through all the topics and videos I could find on the subject.  I realized I hadn't tightened the support bar.  So I did that.  I also rested the support on the stone and it was parallel except maybe 1/32 low on the very inside corner, maybe 1/64).  But it didn't seem to be a gradual slope, more like a slightly out of square corner.  I don't have a truing tool yet, but I've ordered one.

Next I drew a line across the stone as shown in the booklet for Japanese chisels.  Put the blade back int the se77 and the blade was almost perfectly parallel to the line.  It was off by about 1/64.  But it's hard to say that's accurate because sharpies bleed a bit.  Close enough anyway I would think.

I finally got a square blade by continually checking with a tiny starret square and adjusted accordingly through the sharpening.  I guess it's not too much of a pain but I would like to figure out how to do this with the confidence that it will come out shraight without continuously adjusting.

Any new thoughts on this topic?  Thanks!!

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Seth.

I think the T4 is the ideal Tormek for a home workshop. I also think the SE-77 is the most useful jig for plane blades. That stated, I think it is unfortunate that both of these, in my opinion, are so poorly marketed.

The SE-77, like its predecessor, the SE-76, incorporates a 90° registration fence. It also incorporates the ability to add controlled camber to plane blades. The problem is that the two knobs which make camber adjustment possible also can throw off the 90° setting. Until we get (or devise) an alignment tool, the best defense is to use the black marker and check the grinding pattern early on. The marker can indicate out of squareness as well as bevel angle.

The T4 pioneered the use of the cast and precision machined zinc top, which was later incorporated into the T8 and T2. Tormek markets it to sell at a price point. It needs the TT-50 truing tool.

On the Tormek website, there is no video for the SE-77. Actually, there is brief video coverage of the SE-77 on the T8 video in the my Tormek, getting started section. You have to register your Tormek to access this. I recommend registering your Tormek.

Try the marker and very early on checking with a square. Keep posting.

Ken

[AKMike]

Here's an interesting video on the SE-77:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfd-xzOF5sc

Mike

[Ken S]

Mike,

This is an excellent video, and David Charles is certainly a top drawer woodworker. Incidentally, he is a (very inactive) forum member.

Thanks for posting the link.

Ken

[darita]

I just became a member here, so yes, I'm late to this thread.  For those seeing this thread late as well, I just wanted to throw in my $.02. 
I feel your pain, as I too, have run into this same problem.  Yes, the truing jig is needed.  That said, after truing my stone, I mounted up the chisel and laid it onto the stone to set the angle for grinding.  What I saw was that even with a trued stone, one side of the blade edge was lifted off of the stone surface.  The only thing that could correct that was the SE77 adjustments.
What I'm searching for now is a simple, straightforward way to make the adjustments, instead of trial and error, as I am doing now.

[Bob Jones]

Tormek should provide David Charlesworth with a T8.  He does a lot for your product (He's the reason I bought my T8, for example, and I saw the SE77 video he posted long before I joined this forum today).  I suspect he'd love one to replace his T7.  What about it, Ken?

[Ken S]

Darita,

When I was in the earliest stages of developing the kenjig, I used plane blades and chisels with a modified TTS-100, Tormek's setting tool for turning tools. I used the holes in the TTS-100 to set the Distance between the support bar and the grinding wheel. I placed a blank piece of label maker tape in one of the slots. Using my preset Distance, I set up a chisel using the Anglemaster to my desired 25° angle. Using a fine tip Sharpie, I made a tick mark on the tape by the edge of the chisel in the slot. I marked the tick mark "25". This is the same principle used in the wooden stop blocks shown in the Lie-Nielsen you tubes. You could easily do this with a wooden or cardboard stop block and a spacer block to set the Distance. I just happened to already have a TTS-100.

Out of curiosity, I started setting the Projection of future chisels and plane blades by eye before checking them with my TTS-100. I was surprised how close my by eye Projections were. Often right on and very rarely off by more than 1/16". I think you could train your eyes to see how square your quick test grind is. Keep your Starrett square as a "second opinion". If your chisel or plane blade is square before sharpening, your quick hand grinding wheel turning should show the Sharpie ink being removed across the entire traverse of the bevel. If the bevel was out of square, the quick check should indicate only hitting the high point.

I suggest acquiring a couple Irwin 3/4" Blue Chip chisels as explained in the first topic in the general Tormek part of the forum. With experience, this will go more quickly. (Incidentally, Tormek did not originate the out of square difficulties. Stanley planes have had lateral adjustment levers since the latter parts of the nineteenth century....)

Bob,

I don't think David Charlesworth would want a new T8. Unless he has changed recently, he is still using his beloved Stanley 5 1/2 large jack plane which he has set up as a traditional panel plane. I'm sure Lie-Nielsen would prefer that he use one of their planes for marketing purposes in his videos. The L-N is a superior tool, however, craftsmen become attached to their old tools. I still use my grandfather's 1891 Stanley 5 jack plane. Sharp and well tuned, it holds its own. I have both a T7 and a T8 and use both. If I had a venerable old SuperGrind, it would still be in service.(I would upgrade the shaft, support bar, truing tool and water trough.)

Tormek seems to market the SE-77 primarily to correct for square. It does that, however, in my opinion, having the ability to control camber is what really makes it shine.

Ken

[Bob Jones]

Well, I'm probably talking outside my limits here, trying to say what someone else would or would not want, particularly for someone of Mr. Charlesworth's unquestioned stature.  I've already said more than I ought.  Why don't you take it up with him?

But I will say that I don't see the applicability of the Stanley/Lie-Nielsen analogy.  The T7 isn't a Tormek competitor, it's just older than the T8.  You seem to be assuming that he has a preference for old technology.  I don't see how that applies with a modern tool like the T8.  In fact, it seems to go against every marketing message about the T8 from Tormek, which messages, by the way, I agree with. 

But I don't want to be disagreeable in this forum.  I probably should just leave it there. 

[Ken S]

Bob,

You are not speaking outside your limits or being disagreeable. Just like every automobile manufacturer, Tormek sings the praises of its latest flagship model. I'm sure at some point in the future the tune will change to praising a T9.

Please do not misunderstand me; the T8 is a fine machine. I appreciate the innovations incorporated into its design. If I was going to purchase another Tormek, I would choose the model with the latest innovations, the T8. However, I would not spend the money to upgrade a T7 to a T8. In my opinion, the money would be used more effectively by purchasing diamond wheels or some of the improved jigs.

I use both a T7 and a T8. Being thrifty, if I am using diamond wheels, I will choose the T8. Its round bottom water trough uses considerably less ACC anti corrosion additive. I also like being able to raise or lower the water trough. I do not see Tormek ever redesigning the water troughs of either the T7 or T4. However, the "Traditional" grinding wheels only need plain water and the extra ACC is not really that expensive. I do not favor old technology, nor do I think that David Charlesworth does. I do favor new technology if I believe the innovation warrants the expenditure.

I do not work for Tormek. In fact, I like your idea of giving David Charlesworth a T8. However, he only uses his Tormek for the initial grinding, prefering to hone with water stones. From an understandable business perspective, I believe Tormek would prefer to give machines to a craftsman who used them for the entire sharpening process.

Keep posting. We all benefit from civilly expressing different points of view.

Ken

[Bob Jones]

Ken,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I finally opted for the Tormek because it provides what I regard as the necessary missing step in sharpening for my hand plane (and spokeshave) blades and chisels:  regrinding after several honings have revealed too wide an edge to hone quickly.  My leather wheel remains untouched, and I have only the stock grinding wheel.  Perhaps one day I'll see the need to use the leather or some esoteric wheel material.  But for me, the machine is worth having because it does a unique and necessary task in my work.  Mr. Charlesworth opening my eyes to its value, but to say that he "only" uses it for grinding and therefore does not cast the machine in its full light misses the fact that cool, low-speed, controllable grinding is valuable enough for a wide range of Tormek's customers. 

[Ken S]

Bob,
I did not mean to imply anything negative about David Charlesworth or his sharpening technique. I respect both him and his technique. Here is a link to the only post he ever placed on the forum:

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=16

Although the post is from many years ago, I do not believe that his technique has changed. While he makes good use of the Tormek, his technique is not the traditional Tormek method. He very intelligently uses the water cooled, dust free Tormek for his initial grinding (sharpening). He does not state if he uses the stone grader and the second Tormek step, the fine grinding. As he uses both 800 and 8000 grit water stones, I would guess he uses his SG-250 only as a coarse wheel. This is the most labor intensive part of sharpening.

Where he differs from traditional Tormek technique is by using water stones to create a secondary or micro bevel. This well respected technique is typical for bench stone users to reduce the time and labor involved in sharpening the entire bevel. I used this technique for years until I purchased my Tormek.

The Tormek technique involves fine grinding and honing/polishing the entire bevel. The Tormek does the work. Both methods work. Both take around the same time. Personal preference carries the day. The Tormek performs well either way.

Ken

[RichColvin]

Ken,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I finally opted for the Tormek because it provides what I regard as the necessary missing step in sharpening for my hand plane (and spokeshave) blades and chisels:  regrinding after several honings have revealed too wide an edge to hone quickly.  My leather wheel remains untouched, and I have only the stock grinding wheel.  Perhaps one day I'll see the need to use the leather or some esoteric wheel material.  But for me, the machine is worth having because it does a unique and necessary task in my work.  Mr. Charlesworth opening my eyes to its value, but to say that he "only" uses it for grinding and therefore does not cast the machine in its full light misses the fact that cool, low-speed, controllable grinding is valuable enough for a wide range of Tormek's customers.

Bob,

If you get to using harder metal chisels (e.g., powdered metal), then using an SB grindstone May be a worthwhile investment. 

Kind regards,
Rich 

[MikeK]

Bob,
I did not mean to imply anything negative about David Charlesworth or his sharpening technique. I respect both him and his technique. Here is a link to the only post he ever placed on the forum:

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=16

Although the post is from many years ago, I do not believe that his technique has changed. While he makes good use of the Tormek, his technique is not the traditional Tormek method. He very intelligently uses the water cooled, dust free Tormek for his initial grinding (sharpening). He does not state if he uses the stone grader and the second Tormek step, the fine grinding. As he uses both 800 and 8000 grit water stones, I would guess he uses his SG-250 only as a coarse wheel. This is the most labor intensive part of sharpening.

Where he differs from traditional Tormek technique is by using water stones to create a secondary or micro bevel. This well respected technique is typical for bench stone users to reduce the time and labor involved in sharpening the entire bevel. I used this technique for years until I purchased my Tormek.

The Tormek technique involves fine grinding and honing/polishing the entire bevel. The Tormek does the work. Both methods work. Both take around the same time. Personal preference carries the day. The Tormek performs well either way.

Ken

I attended David's week-long Tool Tuning course earlier this year, followed two weeks later with his week-long Dovetailing course.  I had the additional benefit of being his only student for both courses and shipped all of my chisels and three of my bench planes to his shop for use during the courses.

David uses the T7 and a diamond wheel (I think it was the DC-250) to hollow grind the 25-degree bevel on chisels and plane irons.  From there, he uses the 800, 1200, and 8000 grit water stones for the second and third bevels.  There were the 6000 and 10000 grit stones available, but they weren't used.

[simonh]

I think first step to a square edge is mastering how to set the tool rest parallel. Lower the spinning nut so the tool rest is almost touching the stone. Then using a torch shinning behind look how parallel to the stone it is (assuming your stone is new or trued). For repeatability I place my hand fully on the rest between the two tightening points, then tighten both.  Simply tightening the front knob, then the back will result it in not been parallel. So, repeatability means doing the same procedure every time. Practice a few times from your usual standing position to get the procedure into memory, checking each time with the torch.

After that, I then put a straight edge steel ruler or similar in the SE-77 jig and register it against the edge with about 50mm of stick out. Then, raise up the rest so the angle is around 25 degrees. Hand on rest, tighten both knobs. Now take a look with a torch again at how the edge is meeting the stone. The SE-77 has a mark that shows when it is aligned to 90 degree, but I find that you can do any slight tweaking using the two adjustment knobs to ensure the ruler is parallel to the stone (tiny adjustments are all that is needed). Practice a few times loosening the tool rest, making an adjustment to the angle say swapping between 25/30 degrees and following the same procedures of hand on rest and tightening the knobs and check that your results are repeatable and the edge is parallel.   

You can always tweak the squareness further with an actual blade in the jig using the marker technique. But at least having a repeatable method of setting the tool rest will remove a large amount of the error in my experience.

-Simon

[Ken S]

Mike,
What a fine and rare opportunity, private study with David Charlesworth! As much as I try not to be jealous of anyone, your good fortune tempts me to be envious.    I think using the DC 250 for the initial bevel grinding is an excellent technique. Although I choose to use other methods for the finer grinding and polishing, I certainly respect David Charlesworth´s expertise.

Simon, you are in the right direction finding a repeatable method. Along that thinking, when I was doing photo darkroom work, I kept a negative handy which I knew would easily make a good print. When I had a ¨bad hair day¨printing, I could make a standard print from this negative. If the print matched past standard prints, I knew that my paper, chemicals and basic procedure were OK. That simplified troubleshooting.With the Tormek, we could keep a marked, carefully squared and tested plane blade or chisel. (A plane blade with rust pits in the back would work OK for this.) Use a fine tipped Sharpie to scribe a line across the grinding wheel using the support bar located just off the wheel as a registration fence. This should be square. Place the test blade against the registration fence of the SE 77. If the known square edge of the blade matches the square Sharpie edge on the grinding wheel, the ground edge of the desired tool should also be square. If the edge of the test tool is not parallel with the line on the grinding wheel, adjust the two knoobs until it is and tighten them.

This may seem an involved procedure, however, practice should make most of it unnecessary. If the problem persists, pleas post again.

Ken