T2 diamond wheels and rubber honing wheel

[Ken S]

I have been watching to see when the DWF-200 and DWC-200 diamond wheels and the rubber honing wheel will be available as individual items. I found them recently on the website of a major US Tormek dealer. In the description, it was stated that they were not compatable with any other model than the T2.

I sent an email to the dealer inquiring if the incompatability included the T4. The reply stated that they were not compatable with the T4.

As the shafts and drive wheels of the T2 and T4 are identical, I was not convinced. I went to my shop and removed the DWF-200 and rubber wheel from my T2 and put them on my T4. As expected, they are totally plug and play. The diamond wheel, like the SG-200, also works on the T7/8. Either of these wheels require an extra spacer washer, like the one which comes with the T4, to fill the gap between the 40 and 50mm thick wheels. The smaller wheel should work as well with the larger Tormek as well as any wheel worn to 200 mm. It just won't wear any further. Perhaps someday we may see Tormek diamond or CBN wheels in 250mm diameter.

I have left the diamond wheel and rubber honing wheel on my T4. I believe they may be more useful to a Tormek sharpener used with the T4. I appreciate having the choice and will keep you posted.

Ken

ps The DWF-200 has a really nice steel bushing!

pps For anyone placing a parts order, I recommend purchasing a spare spacer washer. I use different wheels, like the Norton 3X, which are thinner. Having a spare spacer washer or two is very useful.

[cbwx34]

Not only are the shaft and drive wheels identical, so is the casing (minus the USB setup of course).  If you look at the T-2... it actually has the notches to mount a water trough.

Might be simpler to say "not compatible"... than to say, "you could, but don't use water, not sure about using other jigs", etc.  Or, maybe it's just a recommendation from Tormek?

[Ken S]

Good points, CB. I was curious; the T4 water trough is plug and play in the T2 slots. In fact, looking at the T2 and T4, I would say that except for the grinding wheel, honng wheel, cast top and color, the two seem identical.

The T4 and T8 share the same handbook. All the jigs are interchangeable. I have used Norton 3X and a CBN wheel with the T4. I see no reason why the diamond wheel will not work, at least dry, with the T4. I have to research wet before commenting on wet.

I think using the diamond wheel with the T4 has a lot of potential. The DWF is specifically designed for knife sharpening. 600 grit is a nice compromise between the SG graded coarse and graded fine. There is no reduction in diameter. It can be used dry. For those reluctant to use the stone grader, 600 grit might be just the ticket.

Ken

[Ken S]

I have had a chance to use the DWF-200 and the rubber honing wheel on the T4 with the regular Tormek knife jig. As expected, it works fine. However, I have not yet become fluent enough with it to get sharper edges. It is a work in progress. I still suspect the  culprit is my technique, rather than the diamond wheel. I should have a DWC-200 325 grit diamond wheel by the end of the week.

I don't know if it is a factor, however, I have been working with several new knives. All are "factory sharp", meaning not very, about 300+ BESS. I have managed to lower the BESSreadings, but only slightly. I have been occupied with other duties lately, so please do not interpret my readings as anywhere near final.

At this point, my favorite grinding wheel for knives remains the SG250 or SG200, depending on the size of the Tormek.

The one knife was a new Nariki style of moderate quality. Trying to duplicate the original angle, I would not be without the black marker.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I have had a chance to use the DWF-200 and the rubber honing wheel on the T4 with the regular Tormek knife jig. As expected, it works fine. However, I have not yet become fluent enough with it to get sharper edges. It is a work in progress. I still suspect the  culprit is my technique, rather than the diamond wheel. I should have a DWC-200 325 grit diamond wheel by the end of the week.

I don't know if it is a factor, however, I have been working with several new knives. All are "factory sharp", meaning not very, about 300+ BESS. I have managed to lower the BESSreadings, but only slightly. I have been occupied with other duties lately, so please do not interpret my readings as anywhere near final.

At this point, my favorite grinding wheel for knives remains the SG250 or SG200, depending on the size of the Tormek.

The one knife was a new Nariki style of moderate quality. Trying to duplicate the original angle, I would not be without the black marker.

Ken

A comparison test of finishing on the leather vs. rubber honing wheel might be interesting....

[Ken S]

Agreed. Perhaps we might get some assistance from Sweden with this.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Agreed. Perhaps we might get some assistance from Sweden with this.

Ken

Or just some "BESS" score comparisons.... 

[Stickan]

Hi,
Years ago we actually used a composite wheel on the larger machine.
Using a composite wheel on for instance a chisel that has a one-side edge with a flat back-surface can easily round the edge and needs a long learning curve.
Moving to leather and compound had several positive effects as sharper edges as it gets more polished with compound and the soft leather gives the user more control to not round the edge.

A diamondwheel should not run in water without any protection, such as Honerite gold or similar.

Since the T-2 is a low speed machine, diamond is very suitable and can be used dry and the composite honing-wheel  is easy to use on a knife as the need for compound is not needed. This machine is good in an environment where you need an easy solution to keep knifes sharp 24/7.

Testing with the Bess method would not give users the same score as we all have individually levels and experience using the Tormek machines.
The difference between "good enough" to "very good" is sometimes just 10 seconds of use on the honingwheel which experienced users knows but I have met experienced furniture-builders on the highest level who has not used the honingwheel becasue they started using it wrong. After a short class with me they have come to an level which they previous did not think they could get.

So if a user who has not done the honing correct would do a bess test and put that online as a test, it could actually give people the wrong impression about how sharp it actually can get.
And for those who really know how to use the honingwheel and do a bess test, many users can not get the same result as they maybe did not spend enough time on the honingwheel or even rounded the edge a bit. Inexperience or just learned doing it not as described in the handbook.

On this Forum the experience of sharpening is on a high level but still we would probably get different Bess scores if we met and did a test.

I might be wrong as I have not tested the Bess method but I do know by experience that we all have slightly different way of doing things that would probably show when you are measuring sharpness with one method.

Best,
Stig

[jeffs55]

I do not own so cannot speak from experience. What I see that I like about the composite wheel is not its composition but its shape. The conical shape allows you to hone longer blades without hitting the stone wheel. You really have to be careful not to hit the stone wheel when honing just about any length knife. The cone guides you away from the stone. The leather wheel should have the same conical shape.

[cbwx34]

Hi,
Years ago we actually used a composite wheel on the larger machine.
Using a composite wheel on for instance a chisel that has a one-side edge with a flat back-surface can easily round the edge and needs a long learning curve.
Moving to leather and compound had several positive effects as sharper edges as it gets more polished with compound and the soft leather gives the user more control to not round the edge.

A diamondwheel should not run in water without any protection, such as Honerite gold or similar.

Since the T-2 is a low speed machine, diamond is very suitable and can be used dry and the composite honing-wheel  is easy to use on a knife as the need for compound is not needed. This machine is good in an environment where you need an easy solution to keep knifes sharp 24/7.

Testing with the Bess method would not give users the same score as we all have individually levels and experience using the Tormek machines.
The difference between "good enough" to "very good" is sometimes just 10 seconds of use on the honingwheel which experienced users knows but I have met experienced furniture-builders on the highest level who has not used the honingwheel becasue they started using it wrong. After a short class with me they have come to an level which they previous did not think they could get.

So if a user who has not done the honing correct would do a bess test and put that online as a test, it could actually give people the wrong impression about how sharp it actually can get.
And for those who really know how to use the honingwheel and do a bess test, many users can not get the same result as they maybe did not spend enough time on the honingwheel or even rounded the edge a bit. Inexperience or just learned doing it not as described in the handbook.

On this Forum the experience of sharpening is on a high level but still we would probably get different Bess scores if we met and did a test.

I might be wrong as I have not tested the Bess method but I do know by experience that we all have slightly different way of doing things that would probably show when you are measuring sharpness with one method.

Best,
Stig

So, to summarize...

• All things being equal, (and assuming both used correctly), the leather wheel will give a better result?
• You apparently don't want BESS scores published?

Fair summary?

[cbwx34]

I do not own so cannot speak from experience. What I see that I like about the composite wheel is not its composition but its shape. The conical shape allows you to hone longer blades without hitting the stone wheel. You really have to be careful not to hit the stone wheel when honing just about any length knife. The cone guides you away from the stone. The leather wheel should have the same conical shape.

While I don't disagree, an option I tried was to make an 'extension' from the Profiled Honing Wheel accessory, and added a honing wheel to it (either the small one or the larger one pictured would work)...



... this worked to give more room, so an actual "extension kit" of some sort might be an option vs. angling the leather wheel.

[Ken S]

Jeff, you ask a very good question about the conical shape of the compodite wheel and clearance with long knives. This can be even more of a constraint with the shorter housing length, and thus shorter didtance between the honing and grinding wheels of the T2 and T4. Looking at a photo of the long discontinued T4000 knife specific model, the housing was longer.

I believe leather would be difficult to keep in place with a tapered face. The most practical solution in my opinion would be to complete the grinding of all the long knives, and then hone them with the grinding wheel removed. (Be sure to have a spacer where the wheel would have been to keep the shaft from sliding.) With an EZYlock and honing the knives as a group, the extra time involved should be negligable.

Stig, thank you for an informative reply. I was aware of the earlier EA-240 abrasive wheel from studying my earliest edition of the handbook. The early handbook describes this wheel as being used for deburring. This was also when the present plastic locking knob, called a quick change, was introduced for the SuperGrind. From this I infer that the abrasive honing wheel and the leather honing wheel were designed for different functions. The use of the quick change would indicate to me that they were to be used together for their intended functions. Is this correct?

From my limited use with the rubber honing wheel, it seems notably less agressive than the leather honing wheel. I have the impression that it is designed to remove the burr, rather than for polishing. This would seem logical to me. Kitchen knives cut better with some toothiness on the edge. The T2 is designed solely for sharpening kitchen knives, where this toothiness should be preserved. The leather honing wheel with PA-70 honing compound must function eith a variety of edges used for many functions. Toothiness can be controlled by the time and pressure with the leather honing wheel and/or by using a ceramic rod to add some tooth.

I am pleased to learn that the diamond wheels can be used dry or wet (with Honerite Gold to prevent rust). Diamond or CBN lessens the danger of overheating the edge. Using either wet with a Tormek eliminates this danger, as well as eliminating grinding dust. Having the wet or dry choice lets the sharpener choose what he feels is most appropriate for his work environment. His choice can vary by current conditions.

I am convinced that most of the difficulties encountered with the leather honing wheel are caused by a lack of understanding of or lack of experience using the leather honing wheel. I hope that one or more of the indepth Tormek vudeos will concentrate on this underused tool.

CB, Tormek and BESS? I do not believe Tormek is opposed to BESS readings. I have worked with Edge On Up testers and BESS readings for several years. I have posted review topics on them on this forum. I find it fascinating that I can make a sharpness reading in the US and share it with Wootz in Australia, knowing that he will completely understand it and can duplicate. (Knowing Wootz, he will also improve it.    )

Tormek designs and manufactures sharpening equipment. It does not do heat treatment, hardness testing or sharpness measurement equipment. I do not interpret Tormek not using BESS as implying any hostility toward it.

I find this kind of dialogue productive as it helps us broaden and deepen our understanding of Tormek sharpening. Sometime this week, my DWC-200 335 grit diamond wheel will arrive. I look forward to using it and sharing observations with the forum.

Ken

ps My screen tells me that a new reply has been added. I know of no was to keep my reply to check this other new reply, so I must post first and then read. This is a frequent frustration.

[Ken S]

CB,
Your extension idea is very clever! Since the extension does not have sockets for the alignments, have you noticed any slippage? (As so often happens, it seems a light touch carries the day.)
Ken

[cbwx34]

CB, Tormek and BESS? I do not believe Tormek is opposed to BESS readings. I have worked with Edge On Up testers and BESS readings for several years. I have posted review topics on them on this forum. I find it fascinating that I can make a sharpness reading in the US and share it with Wootz in Australia, knowing that he will completely understand it and can duplicate. (Knowing Wootz, he will also improve it.    )

Tormek designs and manufactures sharpening equipment. It does not do heat treatment, hardness testing or sharpness measurement equipment. I do not interpret Tormek not using BESS as implying any hostility toward it.

Ken

They may not use one... but he didn't seem "keen" on having results.   (Maybe just my interpretation).

CB,
Your extension idea is very clever! Since the extension does not have sockets for the alignments, have you noticed any slippage? (As so often happens, it seems a light touch carries the day.)
Ken

It doesn't slip at all... the leather profile wheel pretty much locks it in place.  The only issue I had... the hole on the leather wheel is larger than the shaft.  I could manually center it... but it would take a couple of tries... so I ended up cutting a small piece, (about 1/16") of the plastic cover that protects the main shaft in shipping... and using that to center the wheel.  Once locked down... everything stays in place.

ps My screen tells me that a new reply has been added. I know of no was to keep my reply to check this other new reply, so I must post first and then read. This is a frequent frustration.

Just have a new tab open on the forum... if you see a new reply was added, go read it in the new tab.

[jeffs55]

I believe leather would be difficult to keep in place with a tapered face. The most practical solution in my opinion would be to complete the grinding of all the long knives, and then hone them with the grinding wheel removed.
Surely some sort of glue would work. Leather is formed everyday.