Tilted collar of knife jig

[Stickan]

Hi,
I think that there might be focus on the wrong thing here.
Personally I have not had many problems sharpening knifes during my years working for Tormek. But I got work-hours with experienced sharpeners in-house and my free-time to learn how to do it properly. Today knifes are my favourite tools to sharpen and I have become a bit of a knife junkie :-)

The jig is designed to be able to sharpen as wide range of knifes as possible.
Rebuilding or make a new jig will in to many cases make it more difficult to sharpen some types of knifes. I have never felt that I needed an upgrade becasue my obstacle has been in my head or hands.

I think that sharpening knifes is the task that needs most experience or longest learning curve when working with our jig system. For the regular user who has 5-10 knifes at home there is not many problems and its a 30 minutes learning curve to do a good job but when it comes to sharpen knifes in a business, you need to learn a lot about blades and how different brands and steel works.

We don't have many problems with the knife jig, question being asked about it is often solved by giving tips about how to use it.

I think it feels most natural to claim its something wrong with the jig when cases like this comes, but how can we be sure that the knife itself is 100% correct or made with a 50/50 grind when it's tapered? Most Japanese knifes are sharpened with a 30/70 edge offset which would show even worse when taking pictures of the angles on both sides.

There is a learning curve that is a bit longer when it comes to knifesharpening becasue the jig is only a help to keep the correct protrusion and even how to follow the edge up against the tip is a learning curve. All the different shapes and angles used for the different kind of user area is something that takes a while to learn.

In general, when I sharpen knifes, I use the marker method to sharpen someones knife with the same angle it had when he/she got it. If they would have a reason to change the angle i would use the WM-200.

What I am saying is pay more attention to the tool that is being sharpened.

Sincerely,
Stig

[Sharpco]

Hi,
I think that there might be focus on the wrong thing here.
Personally I have not had many problems sharpening knifes during my years working for Tormek. But I got work-hours with experienced sharpeners in-house and my free-time to learn how to do it properly. Today knifes are my favourite tools to sharpen and I have become a bit of a knife junkie :-)

The jig is designed to be able to sharpen as wide range of knifes as possible.
Rebuilding or make a new jig will in to many cases make it more difficult to sharpen some types of knifes. I have never felt that I needed an upgrade becasue my obstacle has been in my head or hands.

I think that sharpening knifes is the task that needs most experience or longest learning curve when working with our jig system. For the regular user who has 5-10 knifes at home there is not many problems and its a 30 minutes learning curve to do a good job but when it comes to sharpen knifes in a business, you need to learn a lot about blades and how different brands and steel works.

We don't have many problems with the knife jig, question being asked about it is often solved by giving tips about how to use it.

I think it feels most natural to claim its something wrong with the jig when cases like this comes, but how can we be sure that the knife itself is 100% correct or made with a 50/50 grind when it's tapered? Most Japanese knifes are sharpened with a 30/70 edge offset which would show even worse when taking pictures of the angles on both sides.

There is a learning curve that is a bit longer when it comes to knifesharpening becasue the jig is only a help to keep the correct protrusion and even how to follow the edge up against the tip is a learning curve. All the different shapes and angles used for the different kind of user area is something that takes a while to learn.

In general, when I sharpen knifes, I use the marker method to sharpen someones knife with the same angle it had when he/she got it. If they would have a reason to change the angle i would use the WM-200.

What I am saying is pay more attention to the tool that is being sharpened.

Sincerely,
Stig

Stig.

My experience with Tormek is not abundant. I started using Tormek just a year ago and I started the sharpening business with it. And so far, I've sharpened at least 1000 kitchen knives and dozens of high-end knives with Tormek and a knife jig.

I know there's a problem when I use a jig on a thick high-end knife, but I do not want it to matter. In this case, you can set the angle again every time you turn the knife over.

But I have to sharpen very many kitchen knives. So shortening the sharpening time is more important than anything else. So I do not want to check and adjust the angle every time I turn the knife upside down.

I tested with two Victorinox Chef knives and two high-quality German knives at a much higher price. But the results were the same.(Strangely, sometimes the jig is working properly and the angles on both sides are equal.)

About Tormek I don't seem to be a very lucky man.

1. My first Tormek was damaged during shipment and had to be replaced.
2. The second Tormek's TT-50 did not go into support, so I had to fix it myself.
3. The knife jig broke down and had to be replaced.

So I suspect a jig, not a knife. Maybe the two SVM-45s I have are all defective.

I want to check one thing. Is the tilted collar of the jig designed intentionally?

[Stickan]

I am the first to say that you have had bad luck with your purchase when it comes to the issue with the SVM-45 and TT-50. How shipping are done is sadly a bit out of my control even if we recommend to always ship with extra boxes and inlays to protect the machine.
I know that you are sharpening many knifes and I did mean to offend you in any way. My answer was a general view from my perspective.

Since I started working with Tormek we have replaced a handful of jigs and when we have measured them, they are within tolerances. One was slightly bent which we of course replaced as we did with your jig too.

Normally we would ask a customer to send the jigs to Sweden for inspection and measure them. In your case, this being your job, and you are far away from Sweden, makes this a bit more complicated.

I suggest that you and me continue this by using support@tormek.se and keep looking on to this issue until you are satisfied with the result.

Best,
Stig

[cbwx34]

Hi,
I think that there might be focus on the wrong thing here.
Personally I have not had many problems sharpening knifes during my years working for Tormek. But I got work-hours with experienced sharpeners in-house and my free-time to learn how to do it properly. Today knifes are my favourite tools to sharpen and I have become a bit of a knife junkie :-)

The jig is designed to be able to sharpen as wide range of knifes as possible.
Rebuilding or make a new jig will in to many cases make it more difficult to sharpen some types of knifes. I have never felt that I needed an upgrade becasue my obstacle has been in my head or hands.

I think that sharpening knifes is the task that needs most experience or longest learning curve when working with our jig system. For the regular user who has 5-10 knifes at home there is not many problems and its a 30 minutes learning curve to do a good job but when it comes to sharpen knifes in a business, you need to learn a lot about blades and how different brands and steel works.

We don't have many problems with the knife jig, question being asked about it is often solved by giving tips about how to use it.

I think it feels most natural to claim its something wrong with the jig when cases like this comes, but how can we be sure that the knife itself is 100% correct or made with a 50/50 grind when it's tapered? Most Japanese knifes are sharpened with a 30/70 edge offset which would show even worse when taking pictures of the angles on both sides.

There is a learning curve that is a bit longer when it comes to knifesharpening becasue the jig is only a help to keep the correct protrusion and even how to follow the edge up against the tip is a learning curve. All the different shapes and angles used for the different kind of user area is something that takes a while to learn.

In general, when I sharpen knifes, I use the marker method to sharpen someones knife with the same angle it had when he/she got it. If they would have a reason to change the angle i would use the WM-200.

What I am saying is pay more attention to the tool that is being sharpened.

Sincerely,
Stig

Perhaps you are right that this isn't the thread for it, but I'll stand by what I've said before.  The knife jig is in need of an upgrade... at least in two main areas...

Self Centering Clamp:  I'm sure you don't want specific examples here, but nearly every quality guided sharpener that uses a clamp has gone to, (or at least offers) a self centering clamp.  It eliminates the majority of problems with a clamp that is fixed on one side including:  not properly clamping FFG (tapered from spine to edge and/or heel to tip) knives, not properly clamping blades of different widths, and grinding at two different angles, to name a few.

A Stop Collar Revision:  The current "wide" Stop Collar" on the jig, frankly defies logic... especially sharpening on a wheel.  Having essentially two pivot points can alter the position on the wheel, which changes the angle.  The fact that the question... should I: pivot the blade, lift the handle, or pivot and lift, to sharpen can't be agreed upon is because the answer is simpler... the collar should be replaced.  Especially for the smaller EDC (folding pocket), and smaller hunting camping knives, the current jig configuration does not properly sharpen the knife, and you have to compromise to do so.  Do little more than cut the collar down as some have done, and the difference is clear, and the reasons obvious.

I don't see how either of these will, as you stated, "make it more difficult to sharpen some types of knives".  Longer knives?  Keep the collar on the SVM-140.

While on the subject... I'll also add that, for me anyway, the "upgraded" jig was a step back.  The O-ring doesn't adequately hold the collar in place (and where I live, I suspect will soon dry out and crack like most others do)  , and the added weight dampens the "feel" and control (mainly the "light touch" I'm always mentioning) of the knife on the wheel.

Of course, none of this addresses the "tilted collar" issue of the current thread, but since you brought this up here... I'll continue to advocate for a "better jig".  Hopefully you'll not see it as criticism, but in the desire to make the Tormek a better sharpener.  (Thumbs up emoji needed here). 

[Sharpco]

I am the first to say that you have had bad luck with your purchase when it comes to the issue with the SVM-45 and TT-50. How shipping are done is sadly a bit out of my control even if we recommend to always ship with extra boxes and inlays to protect the machine.
I know that you are sharpening many knifes and I did mean to offend you in any way. My answer was a general view from my perspective.

Since I started working with Tormek we have replaced a handful of jigs and when we have measured them, they are within tolerances. One was slightly bent which we of course replaced as we did with your jig too.

Normally we would ask a customer to send the jigs to Sweden for inspection and measure them. In your case, this being your job, and you are far away from Sweden, makes this a bit more complicated.

I suggest that you and me continue this by using support@tormek.se and keep looking on to this issue until you are satisfied with the result.

Best,
Stig

Thank you so much, Stig.

[Ken S]

I have been aware of several instances where members had problems with the Tormek or its jigs or accessories. Whenever the member contacted support, I no not remember an occasion when the service has not been outstanding. Tormek really does believe in excellent customer service.

Good job!

Ken

[Stickan]

Hi,
As usual we take all comments of "doing it better" to us and they will be a part of our discussions when the time is ready.

Sincerely,
Stig

[Ken S]

I first met Stig and a representative of Affinity Tool, the US importer, when the T4 was introduced. There were some very critical, even negstive comments on the forum about the T4 by members who had never seen it. I cross examined both Stig and Sam about the warrants and the motor. I was polite, but blunt. I left feeling very confident in both Tormek' commitment to warranty service and the T4 motor. Since then, every situation I have encountered (they are rare) involving warranty service has reaffirmed my belief in Tormek.

I always recommend contacting Tormek support (support@tormek.se) immediately with any service related issue. Stig and his team are very prompt and the service is outstanding. Tormek products are built for the long run, and Tormek stands behind them.

For the record, I am Tormek user, not an employee.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Hi,
As usual we take all comments of "doing it better" to us and they will be a part of our discussions when the time is ready.

Sincerely,
Stig

I feel like I just left a job interview, where they said, "Don't call us, we'll call you".   

But I can see you've been holding out... on Tormek 3.0?

https://youtu.be/rr1XjsHr0RY?t=20s
(Check out that self centering clamp!)

[Stickan]

cbwx,

No need for that feeling 
Developing jigs is always a compromise and a jig should have a long lifetime.
All comments and discussions normally lead to a better jig, like when we did SE-77 and SVD-186. They are better then the model we had before them.
So when the time comes for an update on a jig, we always try to improve them on several bits.
The updates some years ago with SVM-45 was to lower then angle so narrower blades could be sharpened and lowered the adjustment screw and make the tolerances better in the jaw. And we changed it from aluminum to Zink. Good improvements at the time and helpful in many ways. When it's time for the next update, our discussion here will be remembered.

Sincerely,
Stig

[Ken S]

I thought the SVD-185 gouge jig combined with the TTS-100 was Tormek's most advanced combination. When I reviewed the updated SVD-186, my impression was that the 186 was enough of an improvement that I suggested that it would be a worthwhile purchase even for existing 185 users.

I have been impressed with the SE-77. Tormek advertising makes a big deal about squaring up a chisel. In my opinion, the real improvements are the sliding clamp and the camber capability. Again, for woodworkers, I think the new SE-186 is worth the purchase price for woodworkers.

I like the new SVM-45. I think switching to zinc is a step up. Frankly, I use both the older and newer designs interchangeably. As popular as knife sharpening is with the Tormek, I would not be surprised to see an even newer version in the near to mid term. Please keep in mind that this is just my gut feeling; I have absolutely no inside information on this.

I look forward to the future!

Ken

[Sharpco]

I checked 3 of SVM-45 and 3 of SVM-140. These are all new one and all have tilted collar. So I think it is intended.

[Ken S]

Sharpco,

I believe the real issue is not the knife jig. In my opinion, the real difficulty is that you and I do not have access to the wealth of experience which Stig described in his last post. This is not because Tormek is unwilling to share this knowledge. Support will gladly answer questions which we ask. The problem is that there is no efficient program in place to efficiently share the advances in technique since the handbook was written. Tormek has done a fine job of developing new and improved machines, jigs and accessories. What is lacking is an efficient program of sharing the considerable advancements over the years in using these products.

Tormek is a small Swedish company, committed to sharing the Tormek in Sweden. Every secondary school in Sweden has a Tormek. Tormek teaches regular classes at its headquarters, and has recently built a fine new teaching area. At trade expositions in the area, Tormek shows the entire product line being demonstrated by their top employees.

You and I live in secondary marketing areas. In the US, I know of no Tormek training. At a typical trade show, one might find one rep with a T8 in a small area. Unfortunately, this is typical of many company displays. The dealer stores I have visited may have a T7 or T8 not terribly well maintained sitting on a bottom shelf. Once in a while there is also a T4 still in the unopened box.

I do not expect Tormek to set up training classes. Nor do I expect the kind of displays they do in Sweden. My cost effective solution is to utilize the expertise they have in their existing classroom/studio facility, and produce in depth training videos for present, more advanced users. These videos, while not focused on marketing, may pay for themselves in added sales and customer satisfaction.

Regarding your three points:

1) The worldwide shipping situation is terrible. Between "free shipping" and low wages for shippers, quality is abismal. Packing and shipping costs are just as much a part of item cost as machining and materials.

2) The TT-50 truing tool is a big improvement over the older model. Although I have become fluent with it, I can see room for improvement in the next version, whenever that is.

3) The present knife jig is a modest improvement over the older model. Interestingly, Tormek did not change the product name or number, as they have done with other newer designs. Based on this, I would not be surprised to see redesigned knife jigs in the not too distant future. This is just my gut feeling, not based on any inside information.

I hope we will see more trainng videos soon.

Ken

[wootz]

This batch of new lightweight SVM-45 jigs is an absolute junk.
I tried using them yesterday and am utterly disappointed.

Not only the adjustable stop (this black plastic part) is skewed and not square to the shaft, but also the so-called self-locking ring does not lock. The projection length changes with each move because of that. I've screwed up a customer knife before realized all the problems with this knife jig.

Whoever manufactures them for Tormek has botched the order and damaged Tormek's reputation.
Tormek, as an honest company should RECALL these knife jigs and offer free replacement or compensation.
This is ID of these jigs:


You know what I am going to do now?
I am going to run through Tormek retailers in my city and buy the remaining jigs of the old issue, if any left.

And i do not apologize for my language this time.

[cbwx34]

This batch of new lightweight SVM-45 jigs... is an absolute junk.
I tried using them yesterday and am utterly disappointed.

Not only the adjustable stop (this black plastic part) is skewed and not square to the shaft, but also the so-called self-locking ring does not lock a f*ck. The projection length changes with each move because of that. I've screwed up a customer knife before realized all the problems with this knife jig.

Whoever manufactures them for Tormek has botched the order and damaged Tormek's reputation.
Tormek, as an honest company should RECALL these knife jigs and offer free replacement or compensation.
This is ID of these jigs:
...
You know what I am going to do now?
I am going to run through Tormek retailers in my city and buy the remaining jigs of the old issue, if any left.

And i do not apologize for my language this time.

Lightweight? 

If only a better alternative was available...



... in all seriousness, Rick's mod, while on the surface you'd think is less accurate, since it's a smaller surface on the USB... IMO is a better route.  And attaching the clamp to the jig with the Stop Collar (my mod I guess), is very accurate, the only downside being it's looking like knives should be under 8", (and maybe less depending on shape).

It's pretty easy to add a "locking screw" like the old model had... I just drilled a hole slightly smaller and used the screw itself to 'tap' the plastic collar.  Solve part of the problem anyway.  (Or adding tape as was suggested earlier, might straighten it a bit, and stop it from turning).

1 step forward... 

p.s.  I'm finding it interesting, (and a bit mind boggling), that I seem to be able to use your Angle Calculator, even with the modified jigs.  (I'm trying to figure out why...).