2x universal supports? Makes any sense?

[Daniel]

Hello everyone, sorry if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it.

This is my first forum post . I aquired a T-8 before christmas because I couldn't deal anymore with hand sharpening my collection of hand tools. It's already much bigger than I imagined and it keeps growing... Insanity! Oh, that and also because I wore down to the bare steel a full set of 220-600-1200-8000 DMT diamond coated plates in 3 to 6 months depending on grain size. True story, I swear that T10 steel eats diamonds for breakfast (Rust is its kryptonite, though).

So, the Tormek sounded like the most reasonable solution for dealing with those stubborn alloys, and I am oh so happy to say that this machine truly delivers. I don't think I could be any more satisfied with my purchase. It took me quite a while to decide and, living in a very corrupt and underdeveloped country, surely you can understand why I was hesitant on such a relatively-high investment. All my fears were forever dismissed after a couple of hours operating the T-8. Worth every single penny/cent.

I couldn't help but to soon notice a particular need/convenience, maybe. At this moment in time, most of my work is done with hand planes, mainly bevel-down planes. When I sharpen my planes by hand, I usually rectify the main bevel with a very aggresive/coarse abrasive, let's say 220 or under, at 25 degrees. Then I work my way up with very few passes on progressively finer stones, to establish a 30 deg. microbevel.

And here comes my observation: In my neverending quest to optimize workflow/time, wouldn't it make sense for my particular case to buy a secondary universal support and leave both "fixed", one at 25 deg for the stone and the other at 30 deg for the leather wheel? Or even, regardless of the micro-bevel, just leave both at the same recommended anglefinder setting? Since the stone and the wheel have different diameters, setting the precise micro-adjust setting when switching between stone and wheel, taking out the bar and inserting it in the other postion, etc. is what I spend most of my time while working with my T-8. Wouldn't the results be instantly repeatable if I set always the same projection of the blades out of the SE-77 jig? In my mind it sounds like a considerable time saving every time I need to resharpen a blade... which is all the time

Thought I should ask before purchasing anything else, because I am often quite obtuse in my thinking and surely more experienced users will identify the flaws in my logic. Thanks!

[cbwx34]

And here comes my observation: In my neverending quest to optimize workflow/time, wouldn't it make sense for my particular case to buy a secondary universal support and leave both "fixed", one at 25 deg for the stone and the other at 30 deg for the leather wheel? Or even, regardless of the micro-bevel, just leave both at the same recommended anglefinder setting? Since the stone and the wheel have different diameters, setting the precise micro-adjust setting when switching between stone and wheel, taking out the bar and inserting it in the other postion, etc. is what I spend most of my time while working with my T-8. Wouldn't the results be instantly repeatable if I set always the same projection of the blades out of the SE-77 jig? In my mind it sounds like a considerable time saving every time I need to resharpen a blade... which is all the time

Thought I should ask before purchasing anything else, because I am often quite obtuse in my thinking and surely more experienced users will identify the flaws in my logic. Thanks!

Welcome to the forum.

I see nothing wrong with your logic.     (I'm assuming you're sharpening from the vertical support, then honing from the horizontal).

Many will hone freehand on the leather, but nothing wrong with precision... and will probably have a better outcome.

For a slight alternative, take a look at the extended USB (avail for a limited time) here...

http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/tormek2.htm

... talked about here...

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3396.0

This would give you a support with a little more versatility, should you need it, (and you won't have two supports exactly the same).

p.s.  I'm not familiar with using the SE-77... so may want to wait for an answer to that part, just to be sure.

[Daniel]

Thanks a lot!

That extended USB looks awesome, but my country customs are slow, unreliable and particularly pesky and expensive when it comes to USA shipments. Is there any EU or UK web store where to grab it?

Not sure I will ever need to sharpen a blade that long, but surely is good to have that option available than to miss it later.

[cbwx34]

Thanks a lot!

That extended USB looks awesome, but my country customs are slow, unreliable and particularly pesky and expensive when it comes to USA shipments. Is there any EU or UK web store where to grab it?

Not sure I will ever need to sharpen a blade that long, but surely is good to have that option available than to miss it later.

I don't know... a small number were made available for sale in the U.S.  I'm not sure if they're available elsewhere.  There is a "resellers" link on the main Tormek page... you might see if there's a dealer in your area?  Or, the Extended USBs came from Tormek... maybe contact their support  (support@tormek.se), and see if they made them available elsewhere.

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Daniel. Just time for a quick response now. More soon.

Planes and chisels are my favorite things to sharpen on the Tormek. The new SE-77 incorporates well controlled camber control, ideal for bevel down bench planes. In my opinion, this is much more useful than squaring adjustment for chisels which Tormek promotes. I really like the new jig.

I had the same idea you have about using two support bars. I purchased a second support bar. In actual sharpening, I have not used the second support bar much. A simple gage block is actually just as or more effective. I will describe this in a future post.

The US-400 long support bar was specifically designed for a highly specialized Tormek model specifically designed for knives. That model has been replaced by the T2,which is very specialized for restaurant knife work.

The best support bar for chisels and planes is the standard support bar. Also, the square edge jig works only in the vertical position (grinding wheel moving into the edge). The leather honing wheel must be used in the edge trailing horizontal position.

I am one of the original people included in this U-400 order. I have never seen or worked with it. As a Tormek fanstic, whenever a hard to find product for the Tormek becomes available, I order one. I may or may not ever use it. Time will tell.

The only member I know of who actually uses one is Wootz in Australia. I believe he only uses it for knives. Honestly, I suggest you cross it off of your wish list. In its place, add a turkey baster to remove water and a couple 3/4" Irwin Blue Chip chisels as learning tools. See the Tips and Techniques topic at the top. Just the first post will give you the flavor of the topic.

Enjoy your new Tormek, and keep posting.

Ken

[cbwx34]

This is why I'm glad I suggested waiting for someone who uses the SE-77 to reply.

[Ken S]

I'm slow, however, I'm worth the wait....

Ken

[Ken S]

Daniel,
Sharp is sharp. I will not tell you that a highly skilled Tormek sharpener can produce a sharper edge than an equally skilled sharpener with bench stones. Sharp is sharp, however, the thinking and techniques are different. Microbevels are a long established method which works very well with bench stones. Honing the small area of the the micro bevel is definitely less labor intensive than honing the entire bevel. A wise sharpener beginning with a high speed dry grinder would stop short of full sharpening and switch to bench stones to avoid drawing the temper from the edge by overheating. The hollow grind from the grinder would give good two point contact for honing.The blade was usually lifted slightly.

No microbevel is necessary with the Tormek. First, with the water bath, the edge never gets hot. There is no chance of drawing the temper. The initial grinding can proceed through full sharpening. The use of the fine side of the stone grader and the leather honing wheel polish the already sharp edge.

Second, the Tormek does the work. There is no appreciable labor saving by just working on a microbevel. The initial bevel angle can be the final angle.

The majority of sharpening literature and video is still centered around dry grinding and bench stones. It can be difficult to unlearn. I suggest switching entirely to the Tormek technique for at least six months. If, for some reason, you prefer the bench stone/dry grinder technique, return to it.

Related questions:

How thick are the blades you are sharpening? The average age of my plane blades is at least one hundred years. They are nice, thin old standard issue Stanley blades. I have not worked with modern thicker premium blades. My chisels are somewhat younger, perhaps averaging fifty years.

When you wore out your set of DMT "stones", how many blades did you wear out? Your stone wear seems excessive. Were you frequently switching bevel angle?

Keep posting!

Ken

[Daniel]

Thanks a lot everyone for the warm welcome and all the info!

Ken: Absolutely, the SE-77 was one of the main reasons I bought the T-8. My improvised scrub plane (ala Paul Sellers style) loves the precision that the new jig gives to the edge of its blade. It has proven so useful that purchasing a belt sander, thicknesser or any of those types of machines has sank to the bottom of my priority list. This thing devours wood likes there is no tomorrow, and I hate machines with passion... save for my Tormek. Uh, heresy! 

I'll try to dig the forums a bit regarding your suggestion on gage blocks. Now that you have taught me the word, surely a search will show up some useful info and save you from posting the same thing over again.

Extended USB idea has been discarded as per your suggestion.

I don't have a dry grinder, never used one and I'd rather stay away from fast-spinning noisy machines if possible, so its not even on my wish list. The japanese bench stones are unbeatable in my limited experience for the finest, flattest edge, followed by some stropping with your polishing compound/s of choice, but they are slow for rectifying tasks and dish quickly. I may keep these for giving the perfect final touch to my smoothing planes, scrapers and the likes (I loathe sandpaper), but the rest of the work, like 95%, can be done exclusively on the tormek. Who knows, maybe as I refine my technique, learn new things and practice with it I may achieve exactly the same results just with the T-8 alone.

Yeah, you are right again, on a second thought a microbevel doesn't look like it would be of much use having the machine do the work.

Now, regarding your questions:

I have a sizeable collection of planes and my blades may be from as thick as 6mm down to 1.8mm. Steels A2, T10, PM-V11, a late 40's to early 50's UK Stanley 5 1/2 with its original UK blade and a plethora of Record planes with their original tungsten-vanadium blades (1931-1952). Those are quite thin, usually below 2mm, and a breeze to sharpen by hand. So easy I could do it while watching Youtube and be done in less than 2 mins, but the 3mm T10 blades that come with those chinese Woodriver-Quangsheng-Juuma planes are a completely different story.
Those 6mm bevel up A2 blades are not fun, either, and the Veritas PM-V11 blades are a nightmare to rectify by hand, even worse with a honing guide. Not particularly easy to sharpen in my experience, despite what the manufacturer says and the edge of the blade doesn't produce a burr, so I always end up oversharpening them just to make sure I wore away the blunt edge.
I want to remark this is my experience only and may not be replicable somewhere else, so don't take my opinions too seriously.

Ken, I am somewhat of a newcomer to woodworking and luthiery, so once more take this with a pinch of salt: In my limited experience there is only one marginal case, max two cases, where you would benefit from modern premium blades.

One would be if you are a masochist like me and enjoy finishing pieces without the use of abrasives. With some very hard old figured woods like 45 years dried waterfall bubinga and such, planing might seem impossible without some tearout, but I have managed to achieve perfectly smooth surfaces by switching to PM-V11 blades with thick chipbreakers set ridiculously close the the edge. Maybe the rigidity of the blade-chipbreaker combo is making some difference after all, I have no clue, but surely you can benefit from the longer lasting edge for more reliable results on big projects.

The second one would also need to qualify as not only a masochist but also as a stubborn dumbass, just like yours truly, and using a hard premium blade for your scrub plane or even a jack if you use it a lot. A lot as in " I love pain so much I will never ever buy a thicknessing machine".

For everything else, I don't see the point with those modern, thick, hard blades. They all take AGES to sharpen, no matter what their marketing illusionists claim. A2 blades will fracture at the edge and leave hairline tracks on your wood, T10 is maybe more like O1, so it will fold in places and fracture in others. PM-V11 will simply wear away and become blunt, though it can also leave hairline tracks if you are dealing with tough knots and is possibly a bit more resilient than the rest... maybe.

When I wore out my DMT stones I was mostly using 3 T10 blades, 3mm thick. I didn't manage to wear them much. When you ask about bevel angle, well, I was sharpening free hand, so in a way we could consider that was constantly changing bevel angle. If you mean if I was rectifying the main/secondary bevel angles to other angles, nope, not particularly. I know that amount of wear sounds insane, I was shocked too.
The 8000 stone went back to retailer during the first month. Despite using it with the utmost care, light pressure, honing guide, and going to nerdy extremes to avoid grain contamination, it quickly developed deep visible scratches. It didn't work particularly good either, and my take on the matter was "wherever you can see a scratch, there are no diamonds left in there" so I sent it back as defective.
The 1200 stone was practically useless after 4 months and by the 6th month it wore totally down mostly by the middle where the steel slab was clearly visible, all along the stone but maybe 1-2cm from its edges/corners. Same story pretty much with the 600, move the months a number up or down, and the last one "standing" is my 220 which lost effectivity/aggresiveness the fastest of them all, and it is practically flat by now, completely useless for sharpening unless you have the patient of a saint, but since there are still diamonds in there I recycled it to serve as a flattener for my japanese stones and seems to be doing a good job at it... Can't say for how long, heh!

[Ken S]

Daniel,

It's too late for a full reply, so just a few thoughts for now. At some point, this conversation should be relocated to the handtool woodworking part of the forum.

I purchased  DMT flat plate for flattening bench stones, supposedly for every stone in the workshop. That should read almost every stone in the workshop. It did a very nice job on my India oilstones and Norton water stones. The crystalon sharpening stone I inherited from my grandfather nearly destroyed the DMT plate. The plate should have that warning. Lesson learned, and shared.

The SE-77 requires more finesse than its predecessor, the SE-76. I really like it, although I would change the marketing. Once the cambering is understood, it is quite versatile for plane blades. I like being able to slide the locking screw in tighter; it seems more secure. The SE-76 was non adjustable for square. Really fussy squareness with chisels often required a bit of (borrowing a word from Alan Holtham) "fiddliness". This is not a complaint; it is just the nature of the beast, and soon becomes part of the technique. The trick is to check early and often for square. (and practice) With the two camber adjusting knobs on the SE-77, there is no rigidly set squareness. Getting good results just requires a little more watchfulness.

Two quick thoughts:

For possible distant future reference, if you ever find yourself needing a coarser set up for heavy grinding, like reshaping turning gouges, a 180 or 80 grit CBN wheel with your Tormek can handle the job!

Google Christopher Schwarz. His handplane book is my best handplane reference. I also like his Anarchist book (anarchist referring to a craftsman who works with hand tools, no political connotations). He also writes an interesting blog.

End of the day.

Ken

please pardon the underlinng. I only meant to underline the word almost. A special thanks to CB for helping me correct my underlining mess!

[cbwx34]

I had the same idea you have about using two support bars. I purchased a second support bar. In actual sharpening, I have not used the second support bar much. A simple gage block is actually just as or more effective. I will describe this in a future post.

The US-400 long support bar was specifically designed for a highly specialized Tormek model specifically designed for knives. That model has been replaced by the T2,which is very specialized for restaurant knife work.

The best support bar for chisels and planes is the standard support bar. Also, the square edge jig works only in the vertical position (grinding wheel moving into the edge). The leather honing wheel must be used in the edge trailing horizontal position.

I do now have a couple of questions...

Couldn't  this be an "either / or" situation?  I would think "gage blocks" or a 2nd USB would work equally well.  (Also, I'm guessing "gage block" = Kenjig?)

Why is the standard support "the best"?  I wouldn't think there'd be a difference between it and the standard USB setup wise... so wondering if I'm missing something.  (I suggested the Extended USB, just to have something that might serve a dual purpose).

I did think of a negative to having two USBs while sharpening last night.... you need a lot more room around the machine, especially if you spin it on the Rotating Base.

Anyway, just curious. 

[SharpenADullWitt]

Thanks a lot!

That extended USB looks awesome, but my country customs are slow, unreliable and particularly pesky and expensive when it comes to USA shipments. Is there any EU or UK web store where to grab it?

Not sure I will ever need to sharpen a blade that long, but surely is good to have that option available than to miss it later.

What is your country?  Before the T2, there was a commercial model Tormek that this was a part of.  I am not aware of it ever being offered in the USA, but do believe it was for sale in the EU, that you asked about.  You may still be able to get it, from your local Tormek parts place, where here, it will be a big deal to get one.

[Ken S]

Daniel,

Back to your original question: I had the same thought as you. I purchased a second USB to have one preset for the leather wheel. It does work. I have used the second USB for a quick change with the truing tool during heavy grinding. That works, too. In Tormek's DVD for turners (in my opinion, Tormek's best video), Jeff Farris demonstrates using a second USB to leave the platform jig permanently set for scrapers. This also works. However, the real question is do any of these work well enough to justify the cost of the second USB? I would say no; there are more practical solutions.

(Among my several ideas which have peither proved impractical or did not work is using a second microadjust as a lock nut. It got in the way and did not hold securely. It now resides in my box of Tormek spare parts.)

Gage blocks = kenjig? (Gauge blocks in British English.) Yes, the kenjig is an application of gage blocks. This grew out of my fascination of machine shop technology. For over a century we have been able to measure within millionths of an inch using hardened steel gage blocks. Gage blocks of this accuracy far surpass the accuracy of a micrometer or vernier caliper. A gage block is a stand in tool of a known dimension. The kenjig is a very humble example of this principle. Do a forum member sesrch for Rich Colvin. His page has a link to his Sharpener's Handbook. Rich published my detailed instructions for the kenjig (knife setting tool) (with my full permission). One of the photos shows the support bar distance being set with a kenjig.

Jan has devised a double ended jig (the "Janjig"). Jan likes the dual function tool. My less technical mind prefers single function tools. Either works, your choice. I certainly did not invent the concept.

Regarding the T-4000, the predecessor of the T2: It was a very speciañized machine for restaurant sharpening. It was designed for knives only. Your T8 is the pick of the litter for woodworking tools. Don't get sidetracked thinking about functions you will probably never use.

With your 5 1/2 large jack plane, David Charlesworth uses his as his "super smoother". He uses it as a modern version of the traditional British panel plane. In my younger, more active days, I would have converted a 5 1/2 from a large jack plane to a panel plane. You might look into it. The primary difference is a blade ground as a smoother with less camber.

This reply is already too long.

Ken

[Daniel]

Not too long at all

I love 5 1/2 planes, got 3 of them. My Stanley, a very early Record with 2 1/4 blade (57mm) and a third one currently loaned to a friend to encourage him to delve deeper into traditional woodworking.

Funny thing is, with 3 similarly sized planes I set up each one for different tasks, including smoothing, but some woods were dragging the plane so much that even with freshly sharpened blades and oiled/waxed sole I was having a hard time pushing it. Maybe my 2 lower back disc hernias have something to do with it, they certainly begged me for months until I purchased a Tormek

These days I mostly use my No.4 for smoothing. It's quite chunky and heavy for a No.4 (Quangsheng) but the blade offers very little resistance when dealing with those "woods from hell", I suppose because of being narrower(?). I usually load it with a PM-V11 blade that seems to take punishment a tad better than others but don't take my word for it 'cos I might have bitten the hook. Still, forgot to mention that owning a Tormek invalidates my previous point about modern premium blades taking forever to sharpen: I meant sharpening by hand, of course. Once you have a Tormek at your disposal those modern alloys will sharpen just as fast as anything else, so you might as well try them sometime and let us know if your experience differs from mine. I'm very curious about this matter because I might be doing something wrong and not noticing.

My 5 1/2 planes these days are mostly used as jacks or... jointers! Yes! I know it sounds crazy but once again, maybe because of my back, I find that a well set up 5 1/2 gives me usually better results than my No.8. Having a trusted straight edge at hand is a must. I may have some issues either with my No.8 or my technique because I always snipe the ends of boards when using it, and its sole used to be concave, not sure anymore because I have tried to flatten it now and then. In any case, and as crazy as that might sound, I find the smaller planes much more wieldy and controllable.

Thank you very much for your suggestion on Rich Colvin's book, I'm reading it as I write this reply. I also knew about Chris Schwartz and his book, it is highly regarded everyhwere, and I suspect I would love it, but money is too damn tight to satisfy all my whims One day, one day...

[Daniel]

Update: Oh, wow, I just read your Kenjig article. So simple, so wise, so inexpensive and above of all SO FAST. Thanks!