In the Beginning....

[Sam Sloane]

Do you guys remember when you first started sharpening on the tormek? Well....I need some advice.

Studied everything I could.....looked at SEM micrographs.....read about the Bess system to quantify sharpeness.....yup.....just was a sponge for 2 months......but.....

I cant get great results on my Henckels......Is the X45crMoV15 just too soft to expect it to pass the fingernail test!??

Any memories of what you learned once you tried yourself would be helpful.

Thanks

Sam

PS...I am a mechanical engineer in the steel business.....thought that would help me!...nah...

[cbwx34]

Do you guys remember when you first started sharpening on the tormek? Well....I need some advice.

Studied everything I could.....looked at SEM micrographs.....read about the Bess system to quantify sharpeness.....yup.....just was a sponge for 2 months......but.....

I cant get great results on my Henckels......Is the X45crMoV15 just too soft to expect it to pass the fingernail test!??

Any memories of what you learned once you tried yourself would be helpful.

Thanks

Sam

PS...I am a mechanical engineer in the steel business.....thought that would help me!...nah...

Welcome to the forum.

There's a ton of information out there... sounds like you went off the deep end. 

You should get that knife steel decently sharp.  Unless there's something wrong with the blade, like a bad heat treat... even low end steels will get sharp.  (The problem usually is in edge retention).

My advice is to keep it simple, especially starting out.  (I'm assuming the Tormek is set up and ready to go, and the stone is either graded "fine" or at the level it came, but not graded "coarse").  Use the knife jig if you're not, and sharpen from the top vertical support (wheel turning into the edge)

Mark the edge with a Sharpie marker on both sides.  Set the angle to approximately what is on the knife now. (You can go slightly lower, but not higher).  Sharpen one side until the marker is gone at the edge, and you've raised a burr, flip and repeat.   Don't use a lot of pressure... just enough to make decent contact with the wheel and let it do its job.  (Don't move on until you've raised a burr on each side).

At this point, I like to make a couple of very light alternating pasess, mainly to reduce the burr.

Then move to the leather honing wheel.  You can do this freehand or with the jig.  I suggest remarking the blade to insure you're reaching the edge.  You also want to make sure you don't go to high.  (I like to start lower and slowly tip the knife up... you'll hear and feel when you reach the edge.  Hone at that angle).  Start on the side that has the burr and make 3-4 alternating passes,  then check the sharpness.  Shouldn't take much more than a dozen passes per side at most to achieve a decent edge.  Be methodical with each pass, and watch the angle.  At this stage I don't recommend "polishing bevels"... that can come later if you want.  Right now, just looking for a clean burr free edge.

Finally, take your time.  Don't assume that, if you've made X number of passes, then it's time to move on.

If something doesn't make sense, let me know.. or if you feel like you're doing this already, might describe a bit how you're sharpening, and what results you are getting.

That's my .02... keep it simple.  Once you get an idea of what makes the knife sharp, then you can move on to angles, degrees, levels of finish, etc.

p.s.  Watch this video...   https://youtu.be/fYURcwkKGPs ... (and notice that he keeps it simple).   

[Ken S]

I basically agree with CB, except that (following the first topic in the Tormek General part of the forum) I would begin with a 3/4" Irwin Blue Chip bench chisel. You will get to knives quick enough, however, when you do, you will have a good knowledge foundation. I realize some will disagree, however, i suggest you at least read the first post in the topic.

Ken

[wootz]

Sam, I remember I had difficulty with the first Zwilling Henckels.
I applied the same sharpening protocol we do Global, but never could get the same sharpness.
I gradually realized that the edge is getting too much of abrasion and I was honing away the apex, because Zwilling Henckels steel is significantly softer.
As soon as I started honing them at -0.2 degree shallower angle than what the edge had been set at, I started getting decent sharpness around 70 BESS.

0.2 degree is approximately 2 digits of the Universal Support micro-adjust on Tormek T-7 & 8, when the knife jig length is set at 140mm.

I don't know what Tormek you've got, but you can just experiment. When you finish the edge on a fine grit, lower the US support by 1.5-2 micro-adjust digit and take care not to overgrind the very apex. Try a few lower positions that give the best sharpness, e.g. first try at 1.5 digit lower, then 2.

Let me tell you how we differentiate quality of kitchen knives at our workshop - you can then adjust your sharpening method by analogy.
In our standard protocol every knife gets the same amount of honing by passing the edge 2 times across a slotted paper wheel with a diamond paste.
Quality blades obtain the desired sharpness.
Lower quality get blunted by that.

We already know which brand is what, and give the milder just one pass, but those lower mid-range
require a shallower honing angle.

[cbwx34]

Sam, I remember I had difficulty with the first Zwilling Henckels.
I applied the same sharpening protocol we do Global, but never could get the same sharpness.
I gradually realized that the edge is getting too much of abrasion and I was honing away the apex, because Zwilling Henckels steel is significantly softer.
As soon as I started honing them at -0.2 degree shallower angle than what the edge had been set at, I started getting decent sharpness around 70 BESS.

0.2 degree is approximately 2 digits of the Universal Support micro-adjust on Tormek T-7 & 8, when the knife jig length is set at 140mm.

I don't know what Tormek you've got, but you can just experiment. When you finish the edge on a fine grit, lower the US support by 1.5-2 micro-adjust digit and take care not to overgrind the very apex. Try a few lower positions that give the best sharpness, e.g. first try at 1.5 digit lower, then 2.

Let me tell you how we differentiate quality of kitchen knives at our workshop - you can then adjust your sharpening method by analogy.
In our standard protocol every knife gets the same amount of honing by passing the edge 2 times across a slotted paper wheel with a diamond paste.
Quality blades obtain the desired sharpness.
Lower quality get blunted by that.

We already know which brand is what, and give the milder just one pass, but those lower mid-range
require a shallower honing angle.

Your post raises a few questions... for me anyway.

Are you honing on the sharpening stone?  (If not, I'm not sure your instructions for adjusting the micro-adjust apply).

Are you equating the results of your paperwheel honing back to the leather wheel?  The paper wheel is typically more "aggressive" (for lack of a better word), so i can see why you're making the adjustment there... but don't think it's necessary for the leather wheel on the Tormek (slower and less aggressive).

I think your advice is good for achieving the lowest "BESS scores" on every knife... but in general, to achieve what you call a "working edge" (which was the goal of the original post), I'm back to keep it simple, and don't get caught up in some of this, until you get a basic method of getting a knife sharp, then start adjusting the details as you describe.  (So, to be clear, I'm not disagreeing, just thinking this is the start of beyond "basic"). 

[wootz]

Our controlled-angle support for paperwheels uses the Tormek Universal Support with the micro-adjust.
Since our computer applet for setting honing angle on paperwheels uses the same trigonometric formulas as for setting grinding angle on Tormek, we can hone either at exactly the same angle we set the edge, or shallower for milder steels.
We know which steels require honing at the exact angle, which 0.1 degree less, and which 0.2 degree less to get sharp and not abrade away the edge apex; now and then we get blatant junk knives that have to be honed at 0.3 degree less.

I can't forget a customer who wanted a discount on sharpening motivating that his knives were of a cheap brand - I spent 3 times more time on them to get a shaving edge because kept abrading away the apex and succeeded only by giving them 1 pass on a paper wheel at 0.3 degree minus 0.1mm less than the edge angle.

Setting an edge on the wheels #220 to #1000 is not an issue for getting just a working sharp edge - honing and deburring the edge on finer grits is, where the steel is softer than you think.

I believe this is why quality harder steels seem to many be easier to put a sharper edge on - because they are more forgiving for overhoning.

In sense of the amount of abrasion the edge receives, our honing on paper wheels can be likened (with reservations) to SJ or leather wheel with Autosol or Tormek paste - 1-2 quick passes on a paper wheel is like 5 slow passes on them.

If you add to that a thicker edge from the bevel asymmetry usually ignored by the beginners working with the Tormek knife jig, it is understandable why they cannot get a shaving sharp edge on mid-range steels.

There is a good thread on oversharpening at the BESS forum http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=251

[cbwx34]

Our controlled-angle support for paperwheels uses the Tormek Universal Support with the micro-adjust.
Since our computer applet for setting honing angle on paperwheels uses the same trigonometric formulas as for setting grinding angle on Tormek, we can hone either at exactly the same angle we set the edge, or shallower for milder steels.
We know which steels require honing at the exact angle, which 0.1 degree less, and which 0.2 degree less to get sharp and not abrade away the edge apex; now and then we get blatant junk knives that have to be honed at 0.3 degree less.

I can't forget a customer who wanted a discount on sharpening motivating that his knives were of a cheap brand - I spent 3 times more time on them to get a shaving edge because kept abrading away the apex and succeeded only by giving them 1 pass on a paper wheel at 0.3 degree minus 0.1mm less than the edge angle.

Setting an edge on the wheels #220 to #1000 is not an issue for getting just a working sharp edge - honing and deburring the edge on finer grits is, where the steel is softer than you think.

I believe this is why quality harder steels seem to many be easier to put a sharper edge on - because they are more forgiving for overhoning.

In sense of the amount of abrasion the edge receives, our honing on paper wheels can be likened (with reservations) to SJ or leather wheel with Autosol or Tormek paste - 1-2 quick passes on a paper wheel is like 5 slow passes on them.

If you add to that a thicker edge from the bevel asymmetry usually ignored by the beginners working with the Tormek knife jig, it is understandable why they cannot get a shaving sharp edge on mid-range steels.

There is a good thread on oversharpening at the BESS forum http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=251

Ok.  (I'm still in the "Keep It Simple..." mode for this thread). 

[Ken S]

Very solid, informative posts, CB and Wootz. (I would expect nothing less from either of you.)

Ken

[wootz]

Ok.  (I'm still in the "Keep It Simple..." mode for this thread). 

... said the man who re-designed his knife jig on the principles of space engineering. LOL

[cbwx34]

Ok.  (I'm still in the "Keep It Simple..." mode for this thread). 

... said the man who re-designed his knife jig on the principles of space engineering. LOL

Haha... Rick's might be... mine's definitely not "space engineering".   

But that's a different thread....