Question regarding the SJ-200

[DonWerner]

Hi,

I was wondering what the best practice is when using the Japanese waterstone (SJ-200). Do I use the stone rotating towards the knife or away from it? I have tried both and can't seem to figure out, which works best. However I have experienced the knife blade "catching" on the stone when rotating towards the knife, which left a very nasty cut mark on the stone, which I had to remove with the truing tool. How do you guys use the stone?

[cbwx34]

Hi,

I was wondering what the best practice is when using the Japanese waterstone (SJ-200). Do I use the stone rotating towards the knife or away from it? I have tried both and can't seem to figure out, which works best. However I have experienced the knife blade "catching" on the stone when rotating towards the knife, which left a very nasty cut mark on the stone, which I had to remove with the truing tool. How do you guys use the stone?

Welcome to the forum.

I use mine both directions... rotating towards the knife will typically leave a better edge.  But I use mine mainly just to clean up the edge... I don't use it to polish.  You should get a decent edge either direction... one trick is to finish with a couple of light (pressure), alternating passes, at a higher angle, to insure burr removal, and a clean edge.

Not sure about the stone "catching"... did it do it at the edge of the stone?  I put a slight bevel on the edge of the stone... similar to what is done on a flat waterstone, to keep it from chipping, etc.  You can slightly cant a knife to reach all the way to a bolster, etc. if needed.  As hard as the stone is... I suspect there might have been a slight anomaly that you didn't notice that caused it to catch?  My guess anyway.

Hope that helps! 

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Don. You don't say whether you are using the knife jig or sharpening free hand.

Ken

[DonWerner]

I mostly use the knife-jig, but I also go freehand from time to time. The one incident where the knife caught the stone and left a nasty mark was when I was using the knife-jig. It was towards the edge of the stone   it happened. I think the knife was at a too steep of an angle and that is probably why it happened.

Another thing I was wondering, when you sharpen a knife, do you take from grit 250 every time or only when you need to reprofile? I am new to knife sharpening, so I am still learning and trying to figure out best practice.

[cbwx34]

I mostly use the knife-jig, but I also go freehand from time to time. The one incident where the knife caught the stone and left a nasty mark was when I was using the knife-jig. It was towards the edge of the stone   it happened. I think the knife was at a too steep of an angle and that is probably why it happened.
...

Kinda what I figured... that it was the edge.  As for the angle... if you're familiar with using a Sharpie to check where you're removing metal, don't hesitate to remark the bevel when changing stones... just to insure you're keeping everything consistent.  Even if you're using the AngleMaster, or some other method... the Sharpie will quickly tell you that everything is OK.  Also, again, you may want to slightly bevel the edges of the wheel... you can do that with the fine side of the stone grader (I just hold it against the edge for a few seconds).

...
Another thing I was wondering, when you sharpen a knife, do you take from grit 250 every time or only when you need to reprofile? I am new to knife sharpening, so I am still learning and trying to figure out best practice.

Grit/Abrasive level is something you can experiment with, but in general, 220g is for repairs/reprofiles... 1000g is for sharpening.  But, you can, for example, leave it at 220g if you want a "toothier" edge, or, some leave it in the stone's "natural" state, where they don't use the stone grader at all, which leaves the stone somewhere in between 220g - 1000g.  If you're seeking a more polished edge, than grade it 1000g prior to the leather wheel or SJ wheel for better results.... (so, the short answer... 220g for reprofiles/repairs, 1000g for sharpening... at least when starting out). 

[DonWerner]

Thanks for the reply - very useful!

I haven't quite figured out the Tormek yet though. I also have the Lansky system with diamond stones and with that system I can get razor sharp results, but I am finding it a bit more difficult on the Tormek for some reason.

I use the sharpie method. I don't find the anglemaster very useful on smaller folding knives, which is mostly what I sharpen. Also, I have run into a problem when sharpening my Global kitchen knives, which have a very narrow small edge. I can't really use the sharpie method, since the edge is very shallow. There's really no room for the sharpie to leave a mark. Any advice?

Learning how to sharpen is really a process. :-)

[cbwx34]

Thanks for the reply - very useful!

I haven't quite figured out the Tormek yet though. I also have the Lansky system with diamond stones and with that system I can get razor sharp results, but I am finding it a bit more difficult on the Tormek for some reason.

I use the sharpie method. I don't find the anglemaster very useful on smaller folding knives, which is mostly what I sharpen. Also, I have run into a problem when sharpening my Global kitchen knives, which have a very narrow small edge. I can't really use the sharpie method, since the edge is very shallow. There's really no room for the sharpie to leave a mark. Any advice?

Learning how to sharpen is really a process. :-)

My .02... the Tormek does take a bit of getting used to... mainly because, unlike most other sharpening methods, the position on the wheel also changes the angle... so you have an additional factor to deal with, that isn't a factor in other sharpening methods.  Once I got used to that... it makes sharpening a lot easier, and better results.  (Might be the same reason you're finding it more difficult).

I think the Sharpie always helps... if you can't see it, you might look into some of the pocket magnifiers... they're inexpensive and can be a big help in seeing what is going on... especially with small bevels.  (Small bevels might also mean the knives could use a little reprofiling... so you might want to check the angle and get an idea where they're at?)  You can also "overmark" the edge with a thicker/wider mark, so you can see what's going on... isopropyl alcohol will clean off the excess Sharpie when done.

I also suggest that you use the knife jig when starting out... it makes it easier to see the various "factors" involved in sharpening on the Tormek, and helps eliminate the "location on the wheel changing the angle" issue.  Once you get consistent results, then you can add freehand sharpening to the mix.  (If you have a knife that the jig won't work with... I'd set it aside for now).

There's also other options available if knives are the main thing you're sharpening, for example Herman Trivilino's Homemade Knife Rest might interest you.

Hope that helps!

[DonWerner]

It centainly helps alot, thanks mate. I will try with a small pocket magnifier, never thought of that. :-)

[Ken S]

Don,

I had the same problem you are having with setting the angle with knife bevels. The bevel area is just too small, in my opinion, to work well with the Anglemaster. I also think the bevel is smallish for the black marker. I devised two workarounds. Using Dutchman's grinding angle tables (Do a member search for Dutchman and then check his posts, you will find it. I suggest printing the booklet.), I started the kenjig. From the kenjig idea the idea of a substitute target developed. (Do forum searches for substitute target and kenjig. You will find this information.)

The substitute target measures the Projection from the end stop of the knife jig (which abutts the support bar) to the edge of the knife blade. A piece of metal or a couple thicknesses of plastic gift card are substituted on the jig for the knife, and set for the same Projection. This creates a large flat surface for the Anglemaster.

Your post inspired me to do something I have been thinking about for a while. I created a second forum identity, ken s2. I will only post links to posts I need to find frequently, perhaps only a dozen. Finding posts on my regular identity, with more than 4200 posts is impossible. If ken s2 only has a very few posts should be an easy member, then post search. I hope this will help.

Ken

[DonWerner]

Hey Ken,

Thanks for your reply. I have looked at the Kenjig and it looks like a very useful jig. However most of my folding knives are not 30 degrees, mainly 20 and 25. Should I make a seperate jig for those then or just reprofile them to 30 degrees?

I also had a brief look at the Dutchman booklet, but it looks sorta complicated, so I 'm not sure how helpful it will be for me. :-)

[Elden]

Welcome to the forum Don. I understand Dutchman's tables looking complicated. I just kind of passed over them on the first reading. Sometime later I read them again and thought they were not as complicated as I realized he has already done the math computations. It should not be much of a problem to make different Kenjigs for different desired angles. Also one could get Wootz's program if money is not an issue.

[cbwx34]

Don,

I had the same problem you are having with setting the angle with knife bevels. The bevel area is just too small, in my opinion, to work well with the Anglemaster. I also think the bevel is smallish for the black marker. I devised two workarounds. Using Dutchman's grinding angle tables (Do a member search for Dutchman and then check his posts, you will find it. I suggest printing the booklet.), I started the kenjig. From the kenjig idea the idea of a substitute target developed. (Do forum searches for substitute target and kenjig. You will find this information.)

The substitute target measures the Projection from the end stop of the knife jig (which abutts the support bar) to the edge of the knife blade. A piece of metal or a couple thicknesses of plastic gift card are substituted on the jig for the knife, and set for the same Projection. This creates a large flat surface for the Anglemaster.

...

Well... hopefully noone is trying to measure the actual bevel on the knife... but is measuring the angle from the side of the knife as shown in the manual...    Of course, you then have to adjust for the knife grind angle... not a big deal on many kitchen knives, but can be several degrees on a smaller pocket/EDC knife.  The "substitute target" actually compensates for this... you just have to insure that the "target" sticks out the same distance as the knife you want to sharpen.

Welcome to the forum Don. I understand Dutchman's tables looking complicated. I just kind of passed over them on the first reading. Sometime later I read them again and thought they were not as complicated as I realized he has already done the math computations. It should not be much of a problem to make different Kenjigs for different desired angles. Also one could get Wootz's program if money is not an issue.

Like Elden said, Dutchman's booklet is pretty simple... just ignore the formula part.    (It's not that it's not important, but it's not necessary to make it 'work').  If your stone is new (it's either 250 or 200 mm... since you titled this SJ-200 I'll guess the later), just flip over to "Table 6".  You just need the angle you want to sharpen at, the distance between the jig stop and the edge of the blade (A), and the distance from the USB to the stone (S).  Basically adjust 'A' and or 'S' until it lines up with the angle you want to sharpen at.  (I'm sure that's clear as mud, but play with it a bit, and I think you'll see how it comes together... if not, there's a few other threads on it that can be tracked down).

I'm kinda in the "Keep it Simple" mode when starting out though... since you already have the fundamentals of sharpening from your Lansky days, I'd stick with:  clamp the knife in the jig, mark the edge with a Sharpie, remove the Sharpie, and hone ... once you have that down, then you'll get an idea if you have a need for some of the other methods mentioned.  (But everyone's different, so pick what works best for you).

[Ken S]

Hey Ken,

Thanks for your reply. I have looked at the Kenjig and it looks like a very useful jig. However most of my folding knives are not 30 degrees, mainly 20 and 25. Should I make a seperate jig for those then or just reprofile them to 30 degrees?

I also had a brief look at the Dutchman booklet, but it looks sorta complicated, so I 'm not sure how helpful it will be for me. :-)

Hey, Don.

Once you get accostumed to Dutchman's tables, they are very fast to use. For example, look at the table for 250mm wheel diameter (p7). Go down the left column a few lines to 15°. Then go across on that line to 139. That's the millimeter Projection I used. Look up at the top of that column and see 80mm Distance.

For 10° (20° combined bevel), start at the top line (10°). Slide over to the projection you want to use and then look up for the Distance. For 25° combined, split the difference between 12 and 13°.

I suggest making a separate kenjig for each bevel angle you use. I have made several out of cardboard, both as early prototypes and for "one off" work. Try cardboard to see if you like the idea.

My last math class was in high school in 1968. I found Dutchman's tables "kinda complicated" initially. The little bit of extra effort involved has proved most productive. You can do it!

With the jigs, you only do the set up once (for each bevel angle). If you sharpen six or sixty knives with that bevel angle, you will save a lot of time and tedium and your work will be consistently accurate.

Ken

[DonWerner]

I'm using the sharpie method and it works okay, the problem I am left with is that my knifes get sharp, but not super razor hair popping sharp, like I could get with my Lansky system. I wonder why I can't get the last 10%. Maybe I am too impatient when I sharpen and dont take enough time. How many passes or minutes do you guys use on your knifes, if you're sharpening from grit 250->1000->honing?

[cbwx34]

I'm using the sharpie method and it works okay, the problem I am left with is that my knifes get sharp, but not super razor hair popping sharp, like I could get with my Lansky system. I wonder why I can't get the last 10%. Maybe I am too impatient when I sharpen and dont take enough time. How many passes or minutes do you guys use on your knifes, if you're sharpening from grit 250->1000->honing?

Time IMO is irrelevant... it all depends on the knife.  Some knives take 2 minutes... some 10.

How the knife is finished is to me, what makes the difference.  I like to make very light alternating passes on the sharpening wheel, before moving to the honing wheel.  (Usually only takes a couple per side, up to around 1/2 dozen per side).  This gives me a very clean, and nearly burr free edge.  If I move to the honing wheel, (in particular, the leather wheel), and have a significant burr... which will be indicated by the leather wheel throwing up a lot of 'dust' or debris... I find the results are an edge that is not as sharp.  So, translated, I don't use the honing wheel to debur... but to clean up the edge.

I also don't spend a lot of time on the leather honing wheel with this method.  Usually just a light pass or two (at, or near the same angle as sharpening) to refine the edge gives me the best result.  If on the SJ wheel, a couple of light alternating passes at a higher angle (2-4 deg. higher) will produce a "hair popping" edge.  (So if you want to "mirror polish an edge, do that at the same angle on the SJ wheel, or slightly lower on the leather wheel, then do the light alternating passes at the higher angle).

Notice I use the word light (as in light pressure)... a lot.