Hello knife people

[Airplanedoc]

Don't forget about sharpening all manner of other items.

My answer to your question is to think about your friends, associations, coworkers, etc and go where the money is if you want to make a few bucks sharpening.  My mom is big into quilting and sewing,  She recently got me access to a group of quilters making kids blankets for those affected by the hurricanes.   I went and stayed pretty busy sharpening scissors for 4-5 hours, put a healthy sum in my pocket, made a donation to the cause, and also felt like I did my small part for the blanket making/hurricane relief.   So while you are waiting to purchase/researching.   Look around your social sphere and get some ideas for where/what you can sharpen"_____________"  for a couple bucks here and there.

A friend of mine processes deer on the side,  I sharpened his knifes for cheap/free, and he spreads the word to hunters that I do a great job sharpening knives.  In the long run sharpening his knives for cheap/free gets me a good bit of business.

Woodworkers know other woodworkers in the area,   Foodies know other foodies,  gardeners other gardeners, etc.

Don't turn down 300 Euro just because you only sharpen knifes not scissors

[Ken S]

Point well taken.

Ken

[cbwx34]

It`s standing on the dinner table now looking at me, and I`m eyeballing back of course. Saturday is my day off and going to give it a go.

Wow!  Congrats!

Bet you can't hold off until Saturday...   

[brettgrant99]

Congratulations and good luck!

[tomerus]

It`s standing on the dinner table now looking at me, and I`m eyeballing back of course. Saturday is my day off and going to give it a go.

Wow!  Congrats!

Bet you can't hold off until Saturday...   

You are right! Just did my first kitchen knife and almost made it kukri knife lol
Ooh well can`t be bothered part of the fun. Think I used way to much pressure and DIDN`T read the manual.

Going to read now :-)

[grepper]

No doubt you will get the hang of it much faster than you suspect.

Maybe a good place to start is to understand how the stone grader affects the wheel.  There is a big difference between an aggressive wheel made coarse with the rough side of the stone grader, and a glass like smooth wheel created by using the smooth side of the stone grader. 

Possibly dress the wheel with the rough side of the stone grader and grind away on some junker knife.  Experiment with different pressure when sharpening.  Then dress the wheel perfectly smooth with the smooth side of the stone grader and do the same thing.  No doubt you will notice a big difference!

Everybody here went through the same thing at some point, and everybody here enjoys helping and answering questions.   Before you know it using your Tormek will seem easy.   

[tomerus]

No doubt you will get the hang of it much faster than you suspect.

Maybe a good place to start is to understand how the stone grader affects the wheel.  There is a big difference between an aggressive wheel made coarse with the rough side of the stone grader, and a glass like smooth wheel created by using the smooth side of the stone grader. 

Possibly dress the wheel with the rough side of the stone grader and grind away on some junker knife.  Experiment with different pressure when sharpening.  Then dress the wheel perfectly smooth with the smooth side of the stone grader and do the same thing.  No doubt you will notice a big difference!

Everybody here went through the same thing at some point, and everybody here enjoys helping and answering questions.   Before you know it using your Tormek will seem easy.   

Thank you, will experiment with the stone grader for sure.

Can I ask another question?

I was having doubts yesterday using the anglemaster correctly. Does the plastic part that you use to set the angle need to touch the stone and the blade of the knife altogether? (see pictures) Or do you set that part of the anglemaster on the blade itself without touching the stone? Also when sharpening a long thin flexible blade (see in picture orange handle) it seems impossible to find the angle. So because it`s a sort of filet knife you set in on say 12.5% on the anglemaster?

Another question. How to set the knife correctly in the jig? Does the end of the jig (the part that actually holds the knife) needs to be parallel to the back/shoulder of the blade or should it be parallel to the cutting edge? (see pictures)

Lot`s of questions.. sorry about that.

Also when I set the universal support bar almost touching the stone and you can only see a little light shining through and I spin the wheel I can see the stone is higher on one part. Does this mean it`s time to truing my stone?

Thanks all :-)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/lVLd3N6mWpr8Jwt13

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UVNy2v1hD4NDvc533

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Cv1SRkyeom3nOl7P2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xRn5wicuyvKMBOJk2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/omiYi38H8YXbHU1j2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wlt2WUjmPh3OIpDO2

[cbwx34]

was having doubts yesterday using the anglemaster correctly. Does the plastic part that you use to set the angle need to touch the stone and the blade of the knife altogether? (see pictures) Or do you set that part of the anglemaster on the blade itself without touching the stone? Also when sharpening a long thin flexible blade (see in picture orange handle) it seems impossible to find the angle. So because it`s a sort of filet knife you set in on say 12.5% on the anglemaster?

Another question. How to set the knife correctly in the jig? Does the end of the jig (the part that actually holds the knife) needs to be parallel to the back/shoulder of the blade or should it be parallel to the cutting edge? (see pictures)

Lot`s of questions.. sorry about that.

Also when I set the universal support bar almost touching the stone and you can only see a little light shining through and I spin the wheel I can see the stone is higher on one part. Does this mean it`s time to truing my stone?

First I'll answer a couple of your questions (and I 'stole' a couple of your pictures)...

The Anglemaster should touch the stone and blade (but it's OK to cheat a little bit if needed)...



The edge of the jig should be parallel to the cutting edge...



My take on truing the wheel.  For knives it's not that critical... if I can't "feel" the stone being out of round during sharpening, and it's not obvious looking at it, I don't worry about it.  (In other words, if you're only seeing it by closely examining it while comparing it to the support bar... don't bother at this point).  (As you gain experience, you can true it as needed/desired).

Now, here's my suggestion to get started.

Watch the video Jeff Farris made on knife sharpening (more than once)...  https://youtu.be/fYURcwkKGPs

(For practice, your chef's knife is a good candidate for this... easy to set up and sharpen).

Grade the stone "fine"  (for most knives, it's all you'll ever need, unless it needs repairs).

Set the angle by matching the current angle on the knife.  Use the "Replicating the Existing Edge Angle" found in the manual in the Knife Jig SVM-45 section.  (You can do this for the fillet knife too... but do that knife later).

Sharpen the knife as shown in the video.  Pay attention to how the marker is removed, especially in the belly to tip area.  Practice moving the clamp closer to and farther away from the belly/tip area.... remark with a marker each time, and notice how it changes.  Then, set the clamp so the belly/tip area matches the rest of the blade for sharpening.

Sharpen the knife... dull it... resharpen it a couple of times.  Address any problems you encounter or questions you have at this point.

Don't move on until you can sharpen the knife, matching the existing angle, to a great cutting edge, without issue.

Hope that helps... ask more questions as needed!

[tomerus]

@ cbwx34 Thank you for your advice and help!

So last night I had my second go with the Tormek and I must say I think I really managed to sharpen a knife. When first time using the Tormek I was very tensed and in my head it had to succeed on my first attempt. Well that seldomly works. So I loosened up a bit and changed my attitude and got in a more "Zen" state if you will.
Tried my old chef knife but I could hear the wheel with every spin eating the blade at a certain point so I thought I had to true my stone in order to progress.. I made 2 short youtube clips about that, before and after:

https://youtu.be/U_l57W_9520

https://youtu.be/ZBEYaOp4SDQ

Now that the wheel was OK I took off.. Used the Anglemaster (more) correctly and sharpened away. The trick for me was very little pressure and a fluid motion. One thing I noticed was that I had a hard time raising the burr with the finer gritt. I prepared the stone coarse with the grader and the burr came almost instantly. After raising the burr on one side I flipped the blade. After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. Then I used the honing wheel. Now after using the honing wheel it was sharp but after I gave it a few strops on my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife really took off and it got hair popping sharp.
So all in all a rather succesfull evening and with time I know for sure now the results will get better and more persistent.
Well.. till next update! :-)

[cbwx34]

So last night I had my second go with the Tormek and I must say I think I really managed to sharpen a knife. When first time using the Tormek I was very tensed and in my head it had to succeed on my first attempt. Well that seldomly works. So I loosened up a bit and changed my attitude and got in a more "Zen" state if you will.
Tried my old chef knife but I could hear the wheel with every spin eating the blade at a certain point so I thought I had to true my stone in order to progress.. I made 2 short youtube clips about that, before and after:

https://youtu.be/U_l57W_9520

https://youtu.be/ZBEYaOp4SDQ

Now that the wheel was OK I took off.. Used the Anglemaster (more) correctly and sharpened away. The trick for me was very little pressure and a fluid motion. One thing I noticed was that I had a hard time raising the burr with the finer gritt. I prepared the stone coarse with the grader and the burr came almost instantly. After raising the burr on one side I flipped the blade. After getting the buur on both side I gave it a couple VERY light passes on both sides so that I couldn`t feel the burr anymore. Then I used the honing wheel. Now after using the honing wheel it was sharp but after I gave it a few strops on my stropping paddle with very fine compound the knife really took off and it got hair popping sharp.
So all in all a rather succesfull evening and with time I know for sure now the results will get better and more persistent.
Well.. till next update! :-)

Congrats... sounds like you're well on your way.

I can tell you know a lot about sharpening, by your burr removal technique.

I always suggest grading the stone fine (or as someone else said, just leave it in its "natural state" without using the stone grader) to avoid excess metal removal, but i rarely find the need to actually grade it coarse.  I will be interested to see if you still find the need for this over time... might depend on how much pressure is used, and/or how fast you move the knife on the stone (I had to learn to slow down a bit... I used it like a belt grinder when I first started).  (Just to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything like that... just my experience).  Interesting part about truing the stone also.

Thanks for sharing... looking forward to the next update! 

[Ken S]

I do not disagree with the advice put forth by the knife people. I believe it is most probably the way most Tormek users learn knife sharpening. I certainly would not speak sgainst the videos of Jeff Farris.For the many years he worked with Tormek, he was without a doubt one of the top Tormek experts.

Whether or not having a true wheel is required for knife sharpening, I would not use this as an excuse for slipshod practice. Call me an old fuddy duddy; I believe in the importance of using a true, properly graded wheel. I have been plagued by gremlins too many times caused by an untrue wheel which looked OK. I believe it is important to begin by developing fastidious habits.

I am hesitant to mention it to beginners, however, the SG is not a two grit grinding wheel. We live in a digital world, where things are believed to be either coarse or fine. Several years ago, I learned from forum member Ionut that a third grit existed. A freshly trued wheel has a coarser grit than the stone grader graded coarse. More recently, Stig told me that the SG could be graded to intermediate grits by using the fine side for shorter grading times. I tested this myself by using the stone grader fine side for a much longer time. My SG was noticeably finer; I had been using my SG at an intermediate grit.

Another revelation first learned from Stig was the effect of finishing with a lighter touch. The finish is noticeably finer.

As I stated, I do not dispute the program of the knife people. It is solid. I might suggest that it is not the end all.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I do not disagree with the advice put forth by the knife people. I believe it is most probably the way most Tormek users learn knife sharpening. I certainly would not speak sgainst the videos of Jeff Farris.For the many years he worked with Tormek, he was without a doubt one of the top Tormek experts.

Whether or not having a true wheel is required for knife sharpening, I would not use this as an excuse for slipshod practice. Call me an old fuddy duddy; I believe in the importance of using a true, properly graded wheel. I have been plagued by gremlins too many times caused by an untrue wheel which looked OK. I believe it is important to begin by developing fastidious habits.

I am hesitant to mention it to beginners, however, the SG is not a two grit grinding wheel. We live in a digital world, where things are believed to be either coarse or fine. Several years ago, I learned from forum member Ionut that a third grit existed. A freshly trued wheel has a coarser grit than the stone grader graded coarse. More recently, Stig told me that the SG could be graded to intermediate grits by using the fine side for shorter grading times. I tested this myself by using the stone grader fine side for a much longer time. My SG was noticeably finer; I had been using my SG at an intermediate grit.

Another revelation first learned from Stig was the effect of finishing with a lighter touch. The finish is noticeably finer.

As I stated, I do not dispute the program of the knife people. It is solid. I might suggest that it is not the end all.

Ken

Tools that require things to be as perfectly "square" as possible to perform correctly, as well as jigs that have two mount points on the USB, typically require the stone to be as true as possible.  That's why, if you notice in the manual, a step for these tools/jigs is to 1st check and true the stone (SE-77, SVH-320, and others).  Knife sharpening seldom meets either of these requirements. (A third requirement might be if you're measuring angles in fractions of a degree...).

That's not to say the stone shouldn't be kept true... it's just not as essential to be that precise for good results.  Like I said before, if it's noticeably out of true, or you can tell when sharpening, (which was the case here), then yeah, true the wheel.  But, I don't consider it "slipshod practice" to say that it doesn't need to be kept true to the degree that some of the other tools/jigs require (close examination comparing it to the USB as required by some jigs, which is what as first mentioned).  Common sense applies when evaluating the stone and what's being sharpened.  (Obviously, not saying that your knife should look like a surfer paddling out to catch the "big one" as it rides on the stone).... 

Also, not that I've had a lot of new wheels pass thru my life, but I've never seen one out of the box that needed truing.  Apparently it happens though (assuming this stone was new).

While a freshly trued wheel does have a more coarse surface, my experience is it will quickly "settle in" closer to the coarse finish of the stone grader.  But you're right, you can finesse a coarser or finer finish out of the wheel.  The "intermediate" finish you mentioned, is probably what I referred to earlier as its "natural state"... the stone seems to fall in between the coarse/fine stone grader (favoring the coarse side, or in your case, the fine side, since you used the stone grader), if the grading stone is not used for a while... especially if initially left coarse.  Probably why the manual suggests occasionally "refreshing" the stone with the coarse side, if doing some heavy grinding.

Hope that clarifies my earlier post a bit. 

[Ken S]

CB,

Sometimes a comment has a ring of truth about. Your statement about tools which must be square or jigs with two point mounting has that ring for me. Good point.

One of my forum projects is to successfully use the SB-250 blackstone for heavy grinding, such as reshaping a hss turning gouge. I am not an active turner, however, I have several hss turning tools. The project is ongoing, although I have become convinced that the problem is using too much pressure when grinding. My problem was that the grinding wheel glazed over very quickly. It was very frustrating. One positive outcome of this frustration was that it forced me to become very fluent with the truing tool. You are quite correct; the freshly trued coarser stone quickly reverts to being less coarse. In this case, that meant glazing over again. For that test, that brief period of coarseness was the only time when any significant grinding occured. I need to continue the testing using much lighter grinding pressure. I believe the blackstone will continue cutting well longer. The CBN wheel did not cut any better than the blackstone cut initially; the CBN wheel just did not glaze and continued cutting.

The "third coarseness grade" is far from ideal. It soon wears off, however, in my opinion, it is worth keeping in the quiver as a reserve strategy.

I ended up keeping the truing tool mounted on a separate support bar and making many quick changes. I also made much deeper cuts with the truing diamond. These were successful. I still prefer multiple very light cuts when time and temper permit. It is nice to be able to grind quickly when needed. I also became adept at shortening the travel time of my truing cut to make the surface initially more coarse. The test did not pass. However, the skill gained with the truing tool has proved valuable.

I agree with you about most Tormek wheels being true out of the box. My suggestion to true the wheel is probably a leftover from dry grinding thinking. I have owned a six inch high speed dry grinder since 1972. I have not used it in recent years, however, high speed dry grinding remains in my memory banks. There are two reasons beyond "good standard (dry grinding) practice" that I recommend early truing. The first is psychological. Actually going through the process of truing a wheel changes the mental situation from believing a wheel is true to knowing the wheel is true because you have trued it. The second reason is my belief that many Tormek users are apprehensive about the truing process. I was this way, and, I am sure that I was not alone. If a new essentially true wheel is user trued, only one or two very light (half a number) cuts may be necessary. When a very light cut produces continuous grinding around the circumference and scross the wheel, the wheel is true. The surface loss is miniscles: the wheek becomes "known true"; and the user becomes more confident and more skilled.

I try to approach life without the impediment of an ego. I think civil differences in thought can be very productive, and try to evaluate comments equally, whether they are mine or from others. We are all products or our various background influences. Sharing those influences and discoveries benefits us all.

Keep thinking and exploring, CB; you make me think and grow. At the end of the day, we may still have our original beliefs, however, those beliefs will be broadened and supported by the inclusion of other ideas.

Ken

[RichColvin]

Ken,

I recognize that this reply is a bit off the knife topic, but wanted to add it due to your note about high speed steel (HSS) and the black wheel (SB-250).

My experience has shown that reshaping a tool where the cutting edge is more than ⅛" (2-3 mm) wide is REALLLY slow on the Tormek wet grinder.  If I need to reshape an edge on something like a skew or a point tool :

• I reshape it on the high speed grinder using the BGM-100 to hold the universal support bar (USB), and hold the tool using the appropriate Tormek jig.  Note :  I do stop often to cool the tool in water.
• Then, I sharpen the tool on the Tormek grinder.

This takes me well under 10 minutes, even with setup. 

When I tried to reshape such tools on the Tormek grinder, it could take upwards of an hour.  I highly recommend the BGM-100 when reshaping.  It has been a worthwhile investment for lathe tools.   

Please note:   I have not tried this approach with knives.   It may or may not be the best. 

Kind regards,
Rich

[Ken S]

Good comments, Rich.

There is another option. I reshaped a turning gouge from jig setting two to four in five minutes. I returned it to two in another five minutes. I used a 180 grit CBN wheel wet with the Tormek. This let me combine essentually equal speed with the dust free wet environment of the Tormek. There is no cooling time with the Tormek. Using a CBN wheel, even used dry, an experienced Tormeker should not need cooling time when using the wheel on a Tormek.

I appreciate the idea behind the BGM-100. I just think the process can be handled with a Tormek and the right wheel.

Ken