Plane iron - secondary bevel with SE-77?

[LDBecker]

Hi - I've used my Tormek SuperGrind 2000 off and on over the past 15 years or so with some success, but have recently decided to delve back into the world of hand planes. I have a few - a LN low angle block plane, a LN chisel plane (the large one), a Record block plane, a cheapie Stanley #4, and I just ordered a LN #63 low angle jack plane - very excited about that!

To resurrect my SuperGrind 2000, I bought a SE-77 jig that's capable of cambering - which I had not heard of before - and also a new Tormek US-105 with the adjustment wheel (oh, and a turntable - cool!). I understand how the cambering works - interesting little swivel mechanism - though I do not know how much camber to put on the jack plane's iron for, say, flattening edges of boards (any suggestions?).

My main questions is how to put a secondary bevel on a plane iron with the Tormek SE-77. Is it a good idea? Or possible? Despite my budding plane collection, I'm pretty new at any serious sharpening. With the LN #62, I ordered 2 extra blades to put at different angles (per the LN web site: 25 degree standard use included, 33 for smoothing, 38 for wavy grain)for various uses). Sounds like a lot of fun! 

Any suggestions on secondary bevels would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Larry

[RichColvin]

Larry,

Indeed.  I outlined it on www.SharpeningHandbook.info.  I use the SJ stone for this.

Kind regards,
Rich

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Larry.

For many years I reserved the last page of my journal for planned tool purchases. Your list of handplanes could have been copy-pasted from my wish list. Lie-Nielsen makes world class tools, and you have selected from among the pick of the litter.

I will state upfront that I have no personal hands on experience with any L-N planes. My wife and I have been very full time care givers for our grandchildren since 2005, and my workshop has become an occasional utility shop. However, I still have the interest. Do not feel sorry for me; since 1972 I have been the second owner of a very nice set of 1909 vintage Stanley Bedrock planes.

This also means that my plane sharpening experience is with thinner, carbon steel blades.

I like the new SE-77 square edge jig. For some reason, the marketing seems to focus on being able to adjust for squareness with chisels. In my opinion, where it really shines is with adjustable, controlled, repeatable camber for plane blades. Camber is what separates the cabinetmaker from the carpenter planing down a too tight door. "Camber" is not just one setting. A skilled cabinetmaker will vary the amount of camber depending on the function of the plane.

If you google "Charlesworth plane camber" you will find an excellent you tube on using the SE-77 jig done by David  Charlesworth, a world class English woodworker and teacher.

Another outstanding woodworker and writer is Christopher Schwarz. Chris writes a couple blogs. His Handplane Essentials has been a staple in my personal reference library for years. It should be an essential part of your library, also. The link at the bottom is for his revised edition. Chris is a woodworking historical scholar as well as a practicing woodworker. As a writer, his work is both readable and well founded. You will want to own his book(s) for both learning and reference.

I have all three of the square edge jigs Tormek has made over the years. The first jig is useful for sharpening large "pig sticker" mortising chisels. It will handle very thick chisels. For everything else, the SE-76 and SE-77 jigs have eclipsed it. I like the fixed 90º fence of the SE-76. In a perfect world, with a perfectly made chisel, a perfectly trued grinding wheel, and perfect hand technique, every chisel would be square. In our world, some "fiddliness" is just part of our sharpening technique. The square registration fence give us a head start.

For good plane work, it is worth careful study and practice with the camber adjustments of the SE-77. It is a versatile, well made tool, capable of refined edges. It does not have a one click button to restore everything to neutral. It is a tool for the thinking craftsman. Spend some time bevoming familiar with it; your time will be well rewarded. With it, you can control the camber for your desired thickness of shaving. Your planing technique will take a giant step forward.

Enjoy, and keep posting.

Ken



http://www.shopwoodworking.com/handplane-essentials-revised-and-expanded-hardcover

[LDBecker]

Larry,

Indeed.  I outlined it on www.SharpeningHandbook.info.  I use the SJ stone for this.

Kind regards,
Rich

Thanks, Rich - I read through the part on planes - I wasn't fully aware that there were other stones available for the Tormek. Do you swap the wheels, or do you have a secondary (smaller?) Tormek for that?  With just one machine, I can't really see swapping stones as being a time-efficient way of sharpening. CAN one, in your opinion, do a secondary bevel on the regular SG-250 stone?

Honestly, I had not ever done a secondary bevel - but it really sounds like a good idea and I plan to implement it on my planes. Even with a slight camber, it should be possible to do with the SE-77.

Thanks again -

Larry

[LDBecker]

Welcome to the forum, Larry.

For many years I reserved the last page of my journal for planned tool purchases. Your list of handplanes could have been copy-pasted from my wish list. Lie-Nielsen makes world class tools, and you have selected from among the pick of the litter.

I will state upfront that I have no personal hands on experience with any L-N planes. My wife and I have been very full time care givers for our grandchildren since 2005, and my workshop has become an occasional utility shop. However, I still have the interest. Do not feel sorry for me; since 1972 I have been the second owner of a very nice set of 1909 vintage Stanley Bedrock planes.

This also means that my plane sharpening experience is with thinner, carbon steel blades.

I like the new SE-77 square edge jig. For some reason, the marketing seems to focus on being able to adjust for squareness with chisels. In my opinion, where it really shines is with adjustable, controlled, repeatable camber for plane blades. Camber is what separates the cabinetmaker from the carpenter planing down a too tight door. "Camber" is not just one setting. A skilled cabinetmaker will vary the amount of camber depending on the function of the plane.

If you google "Charlesworth plane camber" you will find an excellent you tube on using the SE-77 jig done by David  Charlesworth, a world class English woodworker and teacher.

Another outstanding woodworker and writer is Christopher Schwarz. Chris writes a couple blogs. His Handplane Essentials has been a staple in my personal reference library for years. It should be an essential part of your library, also. The link at the bottom is for his revised edition. Chris is a woodworking historical scholar as well as a practicing woodworker. As a writer, his work is both readable and well founded. You will want to own his book(s) for both learning and reference.

I have all three of the square edge jigs Tormek has made over the years. The first jig is useful for sharpening large "pig sticker" mortising chisels. It will handle very thick chisels. For everything else, the SE-76 and SE-77 jigs have eclipsed it. I like the fixed 90º fence of the SE-76. In a perfect world, with a perfectly made chisel, a perfectly trued grinding wheel, and perfect hand technique, every chisel would be square. In our world, some "fiddliness" is just part of our sharpening technique. The square registration fence give us a head start.

For good plane work, it is worth careful study and practice with the camber adjustments of the SE-77. It is a versatile, well made tool, capable of refined edges. It does not have a one click button to restore everything to neutral. It is a tool for the thinking craftsman. Spend some time bevoming familiar with it; your time will be well rewarded. With it, you can control the camber for your desired thickness of shaving. Your planing technique will take a giant step forward.

Enjoy, and keep posting.

Ken



http://www.shopwoodworking.com/handplane-essentials-revised-and-expanded-hardcover

Hi, Ken, and thanks for the reply!

Back when the Wood shows used to come to California, I saw a L-N display booth and was completely taken with the craftsmanship and beauty, and visions of what I could accomplish with them flooded my head. Then the realities of a 60-70 hour/week job (Sr. Pastor of a Lutheran Church/School/Preschool) hit, along with raising a family - and my time for such things diminished. I have a fair collection of power tools, and have been bitten HARD by the Festool bug and use many of their tools regularly for home projects.

My current project is replacing all the old red oak in my kitchen cabinets with hard maple that sometimes has a bit of odd grain. It has been difficult to work that grain with power tools - though by upgrading my planer's head to a spiral helix configuration with carbide cutters, I was able to overcome much of the problem on the faces of the wood - but on the edges, even taking care and going slow I had issues. I even bought a Festool spiral blade power planer and, while it helped with much of the tearout, it introduced some other issues. My shop is fairly well equipped with other power tools (Delta Unisaw, Laguna band saw and 12" jointer/planer, and so on).

I happened upon a WoodWhisperer (I think - can't find it) video of the Lie-Nielsen low angle jack plane, and his description of how he used it with his power tools as a kind of hybrid woodworker, really caught my attention, and maybe describes the direction I'm heading in. I am headed in the direction of CNC routers, and upgraded my router table to a setup with 3 CNC stepper motors and is programmable for the height and distance from the fence, so I'm part-way there.  (EDIT: Here's the video link: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/woodworking-hand-tools/handplane-need )

I did discover David Charlesworth's video on the SE-77 jig - and promptly went out and bought the jig.

I have been somewhat familiar with Christopher Schwarz, and actually have his book in my Amazon cart, trying to decide if I want paper or electronic (leaning for paper). I have an older version of Garrett Hack's The Handplane Book - it has some helpful info, but it seems more of a general overview of the subject.

I have one and 3/4 grandchildren (the 3/4 one is due in October), and am looking forward to that aspect of life, AND am enjoying doing projects with my two sons. They are now coming back to me for help with projects, though they weren't much interested growing up. But I've been working with wood in some fashion for 30 years as a hobby - I've picked up a few things

Thanks again for the reply and the suggestions!

Larry

[cbwx34]

With just one machine, I can't really see swapping stones as being a time-efficient way of sharpening.

Welcome to the forum.

Does your Tormek have the EzyLock setup?  It makes stone swapping pretty quick and easy. 

Worth the upgrade if you need to change out stones very much... or to store, clean etc.  (I went for years banging the nut on and off with a wrench and hammer... the EzyLock is just a simple twist to loosen, and comes right off.  Love it).   

[LDBecker]

With just one machine, I can't really see swapping stones as being a time-efficient way of sharpening.

Welcome to the forum.

Does your Tormek have the EzyLock setup?  It makes stone swapping pretty quick and easy. 

Worth the upgrade if you need to change out stones very much... or to store, clean etc.  (I went for years banging the nut on and off with a wrench and hammer... the EzyLock is just a simple twist to loosen, and comes right off.  Love it).   

No, mine doesn't have it, but it looks like it could be added - but just saw that the Japanese stone is almost $400! Yikes!

So - asking again, couldn't the secondary bevel be cut on the regular stone that's been graded? Not as good, I'm sure, but...

[Ken S]

Larry,

Being somewhat of a contrarian, I will suggest that you not purchase the EZYlock or the SJ-250 at this time. I would suggest purchasing the newer truing tool, the TT-50, if you do not already have one. If you have the older model, and the diamond tip is in good condition, you can purchase the TT-50U (upgrade) and reuse your diamond tip. This saves around fifty dollars.

Before buying anything Tormek, especially online, check with a dealer like Hartville Tool or Advanced Machinery to learn the correct price. "Free shipping" often means having the price jacked up and including shipping. (Not all online dealers are devout Lutherans.    )

Having the grinding wheel true and dressed is at least as important as having flat water stones. You have the other essential part of truing, a microadjust universal support. Many very light passes with the truing tool carry the day.

Step two is to spend some time really mastering the stone grader. I was surprised after I really ran the fine side of the stone grader for a long time, at least a minute. My grinding wheel was noticeably finer. Learn what the extremes are with your stone grader. Incidentally, the extreme coarse grade on your SG-250 grinding wheel is directly after truing.

I speak from experience. Becoming fluent with the truing tool and stone grader did not come early or naturally for me. The effort was well worth it.

I believe part of the allure of the SJ-250 is from not fully mastering the stone grader and the leather honing wheel. Only after mastering these two tools can someone make an informed decision about the SJ-250.

I have always found the real value in using the Tormek is the labor saving in initial sharpening and resharpening, such as you would do with a 1000 grit water stone or India oilstone. Polishing with an 8000 grit water stone or hard Arkansas stone is less strenuous. Frankly, I would think long and hard before purchasing an SJ if you already have an 8000 grit water stone.

Micro or secondary bevels came from using bench stones. Used that way, the tiny bevels are definitely a labor saver. With the Tormek, the motor does the work. Try sharpening through the Tormek steps, including the leather honing wheel. Then move to your 8000 grit bench stone. Note the extra time involved, the difference in sharpness, and the amount of extra work. If the extra time involved is longer than it takes you to recite the Lutheran Catechism, the SJ is probably a good investment. 

More thoughts soon, my grandchildren are invading for the week.

Ken

[LDBecker]

Ken,
I agree - I'm not that dedicated to spend the nearly $500 for the SJ-250 and Ezylock, though it is interesting that they are available.

Coincidentally, I did also buy the new TT-50. I was never really good with the old version, but was ok with it. I was hoping I could get a smoother stone with it. I do typically make good use of the fine side of the stone grader.

I think I will experiment with grinding the bevel with the camber, and putting a secondary bevel, again with the camber, and see if I can reliably regrind and hone the secondary bevel, again, following the camber with the jig. I would worry that grinding a secondary bevel on a wet stone would undo the camber.

Oddly, I am right now finishing a planning meeting for a Reformation event we are hosting in October for the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Someone suggested I dress up as Luther, and then the we're talking about a game of Pin the 95 Theses on Luther... I declined politely.

Larry

[cbwx34]

Having the grinding wheel true and dressed is at least as important as having flat water stones. You have the other essential part of truing, a microadjust universal support. Many very light passes with the truing tool carry the day.

Step two is to spend some time really mastering the stone grader. I was surprised after I really ran the fine side of the stone grader for a long time, at least a minute. My grinding wheel was noticeably finer. Learn what the extremes are with your stone grader. Incidentally, the extreme coarse grade on your SG-250 grinding wheel is directly after truing.

I speak from experience. Becoming fluent with the truing tool and stone grader did not come early or naturally for me. The effort was well worth it.

I believe part of the allure of the SJ-250 is from not fully mastering the stone grader and the leather honing wheel. Only after mastering these two tools can someone make an informed decision about the SJ-250.

....

Ken

I like this part.  It may also be worth pointing out that, while the Japanese waterstone may take an edge to the "next level"... great edges were being produced long before it arrived.

[RichColvin]

... I read through the part on planes - I wasn't fully aware that there were other stones available for the Tormek. Do you swap the wheels, or do you have a secondary (smaller?) Tormek for that?  With just one machine, I can't really see swapping stones as being a time-efficient way of sharpening. CAN one, in your opinion, do a secondary bevel on the regular SG-250 stone?

I do swap the stones on my lone machine (T-2000, 15+yrs old).   I've thought of getting another but haven't been able to justify the cost (when I need other stuff & the stones swap so easily). 

On the other hand, as for jigs, I've invested in those extensively.

I chose to invest in the SJ stone, and am glad I did.  Really works well, and when used appropriately, it should last many, many years.

Kind regards,
Rich

[LDBecker]

Thank you all for your welcome and advice!

I think that, with the upgrades I've made to my Supergrind 2000 (SE-77, TT-50, the US-105, and the turntable!), I've spent my limit on sharpening material for now, and will see how it goes. The new plane arrives later this week and I'll hone it up, try it out, add a secondary bevel (thanks for the helpful chart, Rich!), and start making shavings. I did order the additional irons for the L-N LA Jack, so I'll have some angle options to try out as well, and more sharpening to do.

I've also ordered Christopher Schwarz's Handplane Essentials book (hard cover, revised version) and The Wood Whisperer's Hybrid Woodworking book (it seemed fitting to get that as a digital download).

I find myself wanting to build a shooting board - that might be a project for the near future. Stumpy Nubs has some plans for one that I might get (http://www.stumpynubs.com/bench-hook.html ) I've always wanted to build one, but not just a simple one - and I've had concerns about getting the angles perfect. I think I can make it work ok.

Larry

[RichColvin]

Larry,

I have a membership to Fine WoodWorking's web site as this allows me to get the magazine electronically and to look at all the historical publications.  They probably have some good articles about shooting boards. I know they have been discussed on the FWW podcast a number of times. 

Good luck & kind regards,
Rich

[Ken S]

Larry,

I have a framing square I bought forty five years ago. I baby it, and it has remained accurate. However, a much better design would be to have it made like a drafting triangle with a solid hypoteneuse. With today's precision manufacturing, a quality drafting triangle is awesome to behold, and not much money, especially when compared with a large Starrett precision square. I have two large plastic drafting squares. While I am not good with high power math, I love having high power precision triangles in my Quiver.

I vaguely recall secondary bevels and cambering not playing nicely with low angle (bevel up) planes. You might want to check that in Chris' book. I would start with just a single bevel angle and cambering. Do keep us posted.

I try to think of tool return in term of use volume. The EZYlock is very ingenious. I use it a lot. However, with one wheel, I don't know that I could justify the cost. For someone wanting highly polished edges on many tools, the SJ is awesome. However, it does represent quite an investment, especially for a low volume sharpener. For a few chisels and planes used in the home shop as time permits, I don't know that the benefits of the SJ over a skillfully used leather honing wheel or polishing stone would justify the cost. I would give that possible purchase much prayerful meditation.

As forum moderator, naturally my official position is to buy.

Ken

[LDBecker]

Ken,

I DO plan to start with just the single bevel and NO cambering and use the plane as it comes - then add the cambering. The secondary bevel, I freely admit, is a new thing for me. I'll wait to do it and research it a bit. Christopher Schwarz's book is on the way.

I actually have a large CNC-milled baltic birch triangle for setting up my Festool MFT table. I have found it extremely accurate, and plan to use it for setting up a shooting board...

Larry