Use for Worn Out Grindstones

[Herman Trivilino]

I finally managed to wear out a grindstone, from the original diameter of 250 mm to 190 mm. I learned a couple things installing the replacement.

First, the old grindstone barely submerges its edge in the water, but of course a new one submerges a lot further. I realized that I don't need to put as much water in the trough with the new grindstone, which reduces the chances of spilling.

Second, I'll keep the old grindstone for sharpening wide blades like cleavers and mower blades. This is an alternative to a custom made universal support with longer legs.

[Ken S]

Interesting post, Herman. I think of a worn Tormek like a bank balance after completing some form of education; the wallet is lean, but the mind is enriched. A worn Tormek grinding wheel is a mark of honor, a "red badge of courage".

You have also discovered the real reason a Tormek grinding wheel might be considered "worn out". The diameter has become too small to reach the water level, when the water trough is mounted in the normal manner. The water trough in the T8 corrects this by being able to be raised or lowered. I think the same thing could be done by placing shims under the water trough. At 170mm, the wheel still cuts. the hollow grind amound is still less than the garden variety 150mm (6") dry grinding wheel.

When the idea of replacing a worn out SG-250 with a new SB-250 comes up, my thought is to stop using the SG-250 when it is an SG-200 and has more life left.

I like your idea of using your SG-170 for cleavers. Lowering the grinding wheel would have the same effect as raising the support bar.

Keep up the good work!

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

I like your idea of using your SG-170 for cleavers. Lowering the grinding wheel would have the same effect as raising the support bar.

Thanks. I don't recall this notion having been brought up before, and I wanted to document it.

[Herman Trivilino]

You have also discovered the real reason a Tormek grinding wheel might be considered "worn out". The diameter has become too small to reach the water level, when the water trough is mounted in the normal manner. The water trough in the T8 corrects this by being able to be raised or lowered. I think the same thing could be done by placing shims under the water trough. At 170mm, the wheel still cuts. the hollow grind amound is still less than the garden variety 150mm (6") dry grinding wheel.

When using a grindstone that small, other problems arise. The honing wheel becomes an obstruction and must be removed. Other parts of the machine also become an obstruction. I think it's better to replace with a new one when the diameter gets that small and save the old one for cleavers and mower blades and the like. It's always nice to have a back up in case it's needed.

[Ken S]

Excellent thought, Herman. We need to get past the notion of using up the last bit of grit on the wheel and order the replacement while there is plenty of life left in the grinding wheel for rough work.

This topic reminds me of something from my student days. I saw a photo of a Mussolini's Mother's Medal. The basic medal was round with hanging bars beneath, one for each baby. This particular woman had nine bars! It would be tacky, however, we could have a similar medal for Tormek grinding wheels. 

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

One other issue is keeping the stone wet.  Pumps have been discussed on here before, but how do you keep the sediment out of them, so they don't get ruined? 
I could see, placing a sponge, or some other removable object in the water tray, that would give some support, for say another water tray. (fill, place on top of sponge, push down to put wheel on, then start so it gets wet)
Long stuff, would make me want an old Tormek, pre drive wheel (drill turned a different way allows longer objects).  But I doubt cleavers would be that much of an issue.

[Ken S]

To quote the Car Talk guys, "The stingy man pays the most". After a certain point, I think the logical long run choice is to just bite the bullet and order an extended support from Robin and a new grinding wheel. You will only cry once, however your cleavers and long knives will be very sharp for a very long time. 

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

To quote the Car Talk guys, "The stingy man pays the most". After a certain point, I think the logical long run choice is to just bite the bullet and order an extended support from Robin and a new grinding wheel. You will only cry once, however your cleavers and long knives will be very sharp for a very long time. 

Ken

My view, is I prefer the extended support, but I come from a use up what you have, and try to prove it works for you and your payback rate, and then buy when the money isn't an issue, kind of guy.

[Ken S]

SADW,

I understand your thinking. The expression has a different meaning up north, however, I think "Yankee thrift" applies. (My mother's family were all New Englanders, and thrifty.)

Please note that my recommendation is to purchase the new grinding wheel while there is still useful life in the worn stone. A worn stone with enough remaining diameter can be a very useful tool for a long time. I do not advocate discarding a stone with useful life remaining.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

Please note that my recommendation is to purchase the new grinding wheel while there is still useful life in the worn stone. A worn stone with enough remaining diameter can be a very useful tool for a long time. I do not advocate discarding a stone with useful life remaining.

Even when the old grindstone is officially worn out (190 mm diameter, I think) and is a pain to use for most purposes, it can still be used for things like cleavers and lawn mower blades that are so wide the Universal Support rods are not long enough. You do have to remove the honing wheel. Which is something you sometimes have to do anyway and so it's designed for easy removal.

With the EzyLock it's no problem to switch between grindstones.

I'm not a professional sharpener and I'm not a professional wood worker, so it's hard for me to justify purchases like the extended universal support. I use my Tormek to keep my knives and tools sharp, and at some point extra purchases just can't be justified. What I have now can be used to keep them all sharp.

[Ken S]

Herman,

I completely understand. Honestly, the main reason I ordered the extended support was to support another forum member's efforts. That stated, I have found it useful in several ways.

As far as thrift, while I am more relaxed with Tormek expenses, I am the guy who as a student spent a day walking around in the rain (with no umbrella) looking for the best price on an umbrella. 

Ken

[jeffs55]

As far as thrift, while I am more relaxed with Tormek expenses, I am the guy who as a student spent a day walking around in the rain (with no umbrella) looking for the best price on an umbrella. 
Ken

I understand. I have a couple of favorite sayings or maybe there are more than a couple. One was taught to me years ago and has only lately born fruit. "First loss is least loss", it was told to me by a Jewish lady so I will attribute it to Judaism. It means, if you have to sell at a loss, the first markdown is the least mark down. In other words, think about it and assess your first offer and see if you can live with it and then TRY to live with it. It may be the least markdown. What does this sage advice have to do with this conversation? Hmmm, I do not know. Oh yeah, use the old grindstone for a paperweight.
Ken, there is a contributor on YouTube that I like and he brought to market a measuring tape and I bought two just to support him. I needed them like a hole in the head but I bought them anyway. They are actually useful but I had enough measuring tapes already. I am getting soft in my old age.

[Ken S]

Jeff,

Perhaps we are going soft in our old age.

Sooner or later, those of us who use our Tormeks will need to purchase new grindstones. The question is not whether or not to purchase a new grindstone; the question is when. Since we can use worn grindstones for some necessary functions, "amount of use" is not a factor. A worn grindstone will give the same hours or miles of use whether it is the only grindstone or as a relief pitcher for rough work.

What will be a factor is the amount of hollow grind from a new grinding wheel versus a worn grinding wheel.

In my case, I sharpen one Chinese cleaver. I am both sharpener and customer. The two logical choices (costwise) are using waterstones or freehand on the Tormek.

Someone regularly sharpening professionally should have enough volume not to be concerned about the cost of an extended support or a new grinding wheel if needed. It is just part of the cost of doing business. If your business can not absorb these costs, either you are not sharpening enough cleavers to make it worth your while or you are not charging enough.

I plan to remove my grinding wheels from active service once they wear to 200mm. At that point, they still have plenty of life remaining, which I fully intend to use, They just won't be my everyday wheels.

I remember the water pump suggestion. I would just put my money toward a new grinding wheel and march on.

Steve uses eight worn grinding wheels (4 pairs) as weights to keep his farmers market table stable on windy days. I'm impressed!

Ken

[jeffs55]

Even when the old grindstone is officially worn out (190 mm diameter, I think) and is a pain to use for most purposes, it can still be used for things like cleavers and lawn mower blades that are so wide the Universal Support rods are not long enough.
This brings up the ad nauseum subject of the T4. The stone starts at 200 mm and you would junk it 10 mm later.
I believe that I saw Ken S say the same thing here:

When the idea of replacing a worn out SG-250 with a new SB-250 comes up, my thought is to stop using the SG-250 when it is an SG-200 and has more life left.

I could be wrong but as he is so much a proponent of the T4, I do not think so. Fine, the T4 is infinitely lighter and more manageable than the T7/T8 but if you are going to obsolete T4 stones after 10mm, where is the cost effectiveness? Ken, what do you say?

[Ken S]

Jeff,

The answer came up in dinner conversation with my friend from Sweden. He would just say, "You're wrong".

You deserve a more complete answer. I understand your thinking in this matter. It is based on a very correct statement by a real deal Tormek guru, Jeff Farris, who also founded and moderated this forum. At the time of the question, "the Tormek" in the US meant only the larger, 250mm SuperGrind or T7. The issue was that after a certain point of wear, the wheel became too small in diameter to reach the water in the trough. Trying to use it further would involve some fancy and not very productive footwork reconfiguring the water trough or introducing another water source. It could be done, however, it just is not practical. The logical, easy solution is just to replace the grinding wheel.

While the water is the main issue, there are other concerns. As the grinding wheel wears, clearance starts to become more difficult. Tricks like removing the leather honing wheel for more clearance with long tools help, but the work no longer flows as easily.

As the wheel wears, the hollow grind effect increases. In itself, this is not a problem. It does look different, and may not be the desired edge. That is a debate fir other days.

The lift on the new T8 raises the water level, thus extending the useful life of the grinding wheel. The lift feature also has the benefit of easily lowering the water to keep the wheel out of the water during work breaks. NOTE:It is still good practice to dump and clean the water trough after sharpening sessions.

The T4 and earlier models this size are designed around a 200mm diameter grinding wheel ( the SG 200 instead of the SG 250). The water trough is smaller and rides closer to the wheel axis. The amount of wear possible is similar, but not equal to the T7. However, a replacement SG 200 costs $104 US versus $184 for the SG 250. At a practical level, there is no cost advantage with the larger grinding wheel.

It would be possible for Tormek to design a 150mm or even smaller series. Like the highly collectable diminutive Stanley Number 1 bench plane, a miniature Tormek would be cute, and might have some uses. The 200 mm size offers a good balance. It is noticeably lighter to carry than its larger brother, yet still large enough to be a work horse. Most home shop grinders use six inch (150mm) dry grinding wheels, which eventually weaar to become five inch wheels. They are also about half the width of the SG 200.


I have never advocated for the T4 based on lower cost than the T7 or T8. When comparing "apples for apples", in this case including the TT-50 truing tool and the SE-76 square edge jig with the T4, IMHO, the cost difference is negligible. I feel the cost difference, which is the real issue, between the wear and replacement cost if the SG200 and SG 250 is also negligible. For me, the real difference is portability. If the Tormek is stationary, either is fine. In a more mobile situation, especially for older users, the T4, at half the weight, is my hands down favorite.

T4, T7, T8, or a vintage SuperGrind? There is no bad choice, just some of the options may be better suited to one's needs.

Ken