Newbie question re SE-77 jig with T8

[DaveCH]

Hi folks,

What a great forum! So many really helpful posts on every possible topic from woodworkers with long experience of Tormek machines.  Makes owning one feel all the better.

I just took the plunge after months of procrastination about whether I could justify the cost and bought a T8.  I've used a T3 in the past (at a woodworking school over here) and knew how much time it could save me.  I've been using Scary Sharpening, float glass, a Veritas honing jig  and a stropping block successfully for the last couple of years, mainly for plane blades, but a fair bit with chisels.  While I could get great results and shave whiskers off passing mosquitoes, I was going slowly mad and wearing my knuckles & wrists out every time I got a minor ding in one of my blades.  Re-grinding the primary bevel by hand is no fun and the process totally wears out a sheet of both 80u and 40u paper.  I make simple pieces of furniture, like bedside tables and laminated worktops, so I tend to do a lot of hand planning, often taking a blade from freshly honed to dulled in one long planning session.

I've had the T8 few days now and I'm generally very impressed.  As per the Tricks & Techniques thread, it's already obvious that using a Tormek is a bit of an art and I know I've a lot to learn and that it'll take a while.  I got off to a bit of a bad start in the first couple of days, as I just couldn't get a clean, straight edge on a bench plane blade at 90 degrees.  In fact, I couldn't even get a straight line, let alone 90 degrees.  I read everything three times and tore the last few tufts of my hair out, thinking I was just feckless and inept.  I made sure the blade was perfectly registered against the machined face in the jig and worked hard to control pressure at either side of the stroke.  No joy - just wonky, wavy bevels!  I spent quite a few hours practising, re-setting, repeating and adjusting the A & B knobs in the hope of getting straight.  It felt strange, with very inconstant responses to small adjustments on the A & B knobs.  I checked stone for alignment to the support, trued it up etc.  I was really mystified, as I'd found the T3 incredibly easy to use, with really consistent results  from the outset - easy to get a controlled camber perfectly centred on the blade etc.

Reading through the forum over the weekend, I found a great post (sorry, forgot whose it was) that suggested ensuring that the side edge of the blade is parallel to the side of the stone.  I realised that, as long as you have a blade that has parallel sides, this is the only sure-fire way of getting a 90 degree cut.  So I tried this approach today.  I reset the fine adjustment knobs to neutral, centred the blade in the jig (i.e. no contact with the machined reference face) and adjusted it so the right side was perfectly parallel with the outer edge of the stone.  I blinked a bit, as my small engineers square now showed that, over a short 45mm blade extension, there was a 2.5mm deviation top to bottom with the base of the square flat against the fixed body of the SE-77.  Anyway, I went ahead and started sharpening.

All of a sudden, the machine stopped fighting me and I was no longer chasing dips and high points.  I got a really straight bevel with a nice subtle camber.  Did it twice to be sure.  Everything suddenly felt like it was doing what I wanted instead of the opposite and it was really easy to control the amount of camber and to apex of the camber perfectly centred on the blade.  So that made me very happy and I know the T8 will be a great tool for me.

My question is, should a brand new SE-77 jig really be that far out of true of square reference the stone?  My universal support is spot-on parallel to the face of the stone and the stone turns smoothly, with no lateral movement.

Any thoughts gratefully received.  BTW no problems at all if you have to tell me I've been a tad gormless and missed something obvious ...

Thanks,
Dave

[RichColvin]

Dave,

It seems like you have finally pleased Tormekamada (the god of sharpening), and she is smiling on you.

Rich

[Ken S]

Dave,

Welcome to the forum. Thinking of a precision square and an adjustable bevel gage, I would expect the precision (fixed) to be checked for accuracy at the factory. I would also expect the right angle registry fence of your SE-77 to be square. It would be nice if when being assembled, your adjustable jig happened to be square. However, this is easily remedied IF you know how to adjust it. That can be a large if, and I believe some training is in order for new buyers.

My solution is to start with a trued wheel. An untrue wheel is the cause of many gremlins.

With a trued wheel, draw a line across the grinding wheel with a black marker. Keep the universal support bar very close to the grinding wheel while doing this. (Jan describes this in a recent post.)

Substitute a proven rectangle for the plane blade. This could even be another tested and marked plane blade or a piece of metal or plastic. Exact dimensions are not critical. Around the width of the grinding wheel (50mm or 2") is right, and at least 100 mm or 4" long for a minimum is a good start. Mark the two reference sides. Both must be straight and meet at a right angle. Mark the angle for reference.

Place your reference piece (your "substitute target") into your square edge jig against the fence. Place the jig into the support bar and make sure the edge is parallel with the mark you made. My mind tells me it should not be necessary, however, I would have the substitute target project from the jig the same amount your plane blade projects.

Take care of your substitute target; it will be your calibration tool.

Related:
Imagine a graph. Start at the top left. This represents your freshly honed blade just starting to work. This is 100%. You move to the right as you plane the wood. You also move downward as your blade gradually begins to dull. If you carry on until your blade is completely dull, you may have a straight line. If you stop when you first begin to notice your blade dulling a bit, your line will resemble a sawtooth pattern. If you leave your Tormek set up for touch up sharpening (wheel graded fine; blade projection from the jig set with a simple stop block, support bar untouched) you can have a quick stop and be back at work quickly with a very sharp blade.

(I know a turner with a different solution. He has numerous gouges the same size and keeps them all sharp. He just changes tools!)

You are off to a great start. I look forward to your future posts. Be sure to watch David Charlesworth's recent you tube on cambering with the SE -77.

Ken

[DaveCH]

Hi Ken,

Thanks.  This sounds like a good idea.  I'll give it a crack tomorrow or Wednesday and see what comes up.  As you say, given the obviously excellent build quality for the T8 and the jigs, it feels unlikely that that's wrong.

Just to check I've understood you properly, are you saying that I should draw around the head of the reference piece to show the line of the side edges and the front edge.  Is that right? I assume the front edge should align with the line just dawn on the stone using the universal support bar.

So, if I now fit the reference piece into the SE-77, set against the fence, I'd be looking for the sides of the piece to be parallel to the side lines drawn on the stone, and for the front edge of the reference piece to align with the line drawn via the support bar.  Ideally, it'd match perfectly, but if not, is the idea that I then tweak the SE-77 using the fine adjusters to align with the marks on the stone?  I can see how that might give a one-time tune-up for the SE-77.

I think I've got a good reference tool, being a brand new blade for my Woodriver low angle block plane.  Untouched, ground as from the factory and a tad narrower than the stone, which will make it easier to mark lines down either side.  I'll check it's perfectly square.

Lots of geometry stuff going on here.  One minute, you think you've sort of got it and then you realise there's a load of stuff you don't understand :-(

Rich, glad to hear Tormekamada is looking out for me.  Think I might need a bit more help from her ...

Dave

[Ken S]

Dave,

I just ran a quick test on my substitute target idea. A rewards card (same size as a credit card, but totally flat) works. The short dimension is about the width of the grinding wheel. The long dimension is long enough to fit against the right angle fence of the square edge jig. I set this up and discovered I was not quite parallel with the line drawn on the grinding wheel. A quick look at the end of the jig revealed that my setting was just a small amount off. I reset the jig and all is well. I did not check when I finished my last plane blade.

The rewards card works well enough for a fast, no effort test. In fact, I would feel comfortable grinding after this test. Long term, I would prefer a slightly thicker testing card, probably made of steel.

I hope at this point you get the idea; it sounds that way.

In my opinion, accurately controlled camber is the main improvement in this jig. Chisel squareness is easily corrected with a light hammer.

Like many of us, you start the Tormek with a sharpening background. Spend enough time to really become fluent with the basics. Make the EZYlock second nature. The water trough should become an extension of your hands, as should the jigs. Know the sounds and feel of grinding. Become expert with the truing tool, stone grader, and leather honing wheel. Your Tormek is a very versatile tool in skilled hands.

You are off to e very good start.

Ken

[DaveCH]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for this.  I did as you suggested.  Started with checking trueness of the stone, even though I trued it only a few days ago.  I was surprised to see it was a little out of square ref the universal support bar.  Either I did a poor job of truing first time round, or I knocked the stone out of true with grading stone (is that possible?).  Either way, user error 

So, I trued the stone, with a couple of light passes and then a fairly decisive one, which left me with clean stone and a surface perfectly parallel to the bar.  My bank cards are all a bit battered, so I used a quality 300mm steel rule, which was dead square across the tip.  I thought it'd be too narrow to get a decent reference, but it worked fine in the end.

I lowered the bar to within a hair of the wheel and drew a pencil line across the stone.  Took me three or four attempts to get a line I trusted as being parallel to the bar.  I mounted the rule against the fence in the SE-77, with 55mm of protrusion.  At first, the tip was a little out of square with the pencil line.  As in your case, I found the jig was a tad off neutral, so I reset it.  After that, the tip of the ruler was bang-on parallel with the line.  I used a fairly hairy-arsed magnifier to take a closer look (I have pretty bad eyes, even for my age).  I'd drawn the final line finely with a 0.5mm pencil and, looking at the underside edge of the rule tip, where it rested on the stone, it couldn't have been more parallel to the line if you'd used the rule to draw the line.

I then re-ground my low angle block plane blade, which came out spot-on square.  So I guess I just got lucky last time, as my stone was out and I didn't have the bade against the jig fence.

Ken, thanks for the superb advice.  So clear and simple and it taught me a real lesson but a great one.  As you say, I now have a repeatable reference, although I want to find something wider for future use.  I feel like I'm starting to understand the machine a bit better.

In the process of doing all this, I also realised that I'd been standing slightly offset to the left when standing in front of the T8.  Clearly just a habit, but I now make a point of standing square and central and that seems to help me get even pressure across the width of the stroke.

No doubt, much more to learn, but this feels good to me, as I really was worried a week or so back that I'd spent a lot of money on something that needed more skill and control than I have.  I guess it actually just requires more experience and skill than I yet have to get really consistent results.  But I like this kind of challenge: a bit like learning to dimension wood with a hand plane.

Dave

[Ken S]

Dave,

You are making excellent progress, better than you realize. In fact, you are progressing more quickly than I did. I am not an especially gifted person manually. It takes extra effort, which I believe may help coaching new users.

I have become a true believer in frequent, light truing. Many of my truing cuts are less than a microadjust number thick. I cut lightly until I get a continuous cut. I have recently learned how to take deeper cuts, but still feel better treading lightly.

A true wheel is your best defense against the grinding gremlins. You have mastered a skill which will stand by you for your Tormek life.

I like the new adjustable SE-77 jig. Like all adjustable tools, it expands the scope of the tool, but must be checked for proper alignment. As you have learned, this can be quick and painless. Another longterm skill well learned. The camber adjustment will give you very good control. You can set it quite fine for smoothing cuts, the kind Jan describes as "A Vienese cabinetmaker's shavings should be no thicker than a cigarette paper". It can be adjusted for slightly thicker shavings to be practical for a long jointer plane, and it can make substantial camber for the initial fore or jack plane. And, these settings can be repeatable to minimize blade wear.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted.

Ken

ps You are not the only one with less than stellar eyesight. One of the prime drivers for my kenjig concept has been minimizing the amount of required  measuring. That's another topic for another day.

[Ken S]

David,

Try setting up your Tormek outside sometime. I worked in a poorly lit garage, with frustrations. One day I set up my Tormek on a Workmate just outside the garage on the open shade north side on my house. The difference in my eyesight was astounding!!!

I have a Delta ac magnetic base LED light which works marvelously with the Tormek. Good light is so important. Overhead light really does not work well. Even the Anglemaster works better in goid light.

Ken

[DaveCH]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the support.  You're very humble about your abilities, but you've accelerated my learning curve no end.  I'm grateful for that and I'm very sure you've helped a a huge number of other people on this forum.

I've had some health challenges in the last couple of years.  I've always been very fit and active; into cycling, running etc. and then, out of nowhere, my body just broke suddenly and I had to have a heart bypass (at the age of 48).  I had a few complications and never got straight after the op.  So I've had to modify my outlook on life quite radically since then.  I don't yet have the stamina to work full time, so I have a bit of time on my hands, but much less money than I'm used to and only a tiny fraction of the stamina I used to have.  The T8 was quite a big outlay for me and I got to worrying if I'd done the right thing buying it, but your help has showed me that it was a great investment.

I've had a strong urge to get into woodworking for a few years, but always worked too long and hard to make time for it.  Now, I've kind of had a bit of a wakeup call and I attach a lot of value to whiling a way a few hours in my garage/workshop.  I makes me feel relaxed and happy.  My hands aren't what they were two years ago and I now have a bit of a tremor, but I can still make stuff.  I've realised recently that I'm probably not going to be able to get back into the fast corporate life I had before and I'm hoping to make a bit of income from woodworking somehow, even it it's part time and only supplements my living. So I have a huge amount to learn to get to that stage.

I wish I'd decided to do something like this 15 years ago instead of grinding out 16-hour days.  Sometimes it take a bit of a slap in the face to wake us up to what we're doing and why.

Re lighting, I'm lucky by UK standards in having a fairly large garage to work in and I converted it to a workshop fully a couple of years back.  The downside is that it has no natural light and my eyesight has fallen off a cliff-edge in the last two years.  I have a 35 year old Workmate, which I'm just about to make new jaws for, so I'll get outside a bit.

Anyway, sorry for the off-topic ramble.  Thanks for helping me out - I appreciate it more than you might guess.  I can work faster now and spend more time making stuff.  Glad I took a punt on buying the T8.  I no longer dread the feeling of my plane blade dulling ...

Dave

[RichColvin]

Dave,

There are some real experts on this forum, and you can learn much from them :  I know I have and still do.  I do have one additional thought though as it regards lighting. 

I added an LED light which is also a magnifying lens.  This is a great boon for me as I can see much finer details than I normally would.  I'm 53 with bifocals, and I wear a face mask when wood turning, and have to resharpen often. I don't take my mask off when resharpening so the magnifying lens to help their whenever I have a question. 

Good luck and don't look back with regrets. 

Kind regards,
Rich

[Ken S]

Good post, Rich. I really like LED light. Excellent vidibility and cool to the touch. We can always benefit from magnification.

Ken

[DaveCH]

Thanks Rich,

Great advice re light.  I'm pretty close to your age and find I need loads of light and some magnification to work these days.  I fitted a LightCraft lamp & magnifier for my MFT-3.  I couldn't live without it now.  I'm planning on building a dedicated sharpening station, a bit lower than my MFT, and with plenty of drawer space for planes, Tormek stuff and other bits. This will be at the other side of the workshop and your comment makes me think I should get another magnifier lamp to dedicate to sharpening.

Don't worry, I'm not cutting myself up over having worked too hard too long.  I did some good things and a lot of them were good fun.  I think life has a knack of throwing curve balls at you at the right time (even if it doesn't feel so at the time) so I'm relaxed and philosophical about my situation.  It's also a great excuse to kick back and enjoy being in my workshop.

Ken, I meant to reply re your point about regular trueing.  I can see already that it makes sense to do that - taking fractions of a mm off at time, but always being sure of a good working surface that is absolutely parallel to the bar and the jig.  Makes perfect sense to me now.

Thanks,
Dave

[Ken S]

Dave,

I would recommend against building a fancy work station for you Tormek at this time. The main reason is working height. Especially when used with the support bar in the vertical sleeves, as the SE-77 requires, almost all stands are too high. most workbench surfaces are too high. Even Tormek's work station is really too high. Working height is very flexible with the Tormek. It can be used in either a standing or sitting position. Ideally the vertical position should be used at a lower height than the horizontal position.

There is no front or back with the Tormek.

I suggest making a simple, temporary stand until you develop a feel for what height is comfortable for you. WolfY posted some photos of an Ikea table he modified. That gave me the idea of using two small tables of different heights. The lower one would be for vertical position; the taller one would be for horizontal position. While your Tormek is placed on one table, the other could serve as a stand to hold tools, jigs, etc. If I was going to build a table like this, I would size the tops to match Tormek's rubber mat.  It is a convenient size, and, if you happen to add a mat later, it is a nice set up. It these two tables are not attached, you can use only one. They would be handy shop tables.

I store many of my jigs and accessories in the six drawers on my Tormek Work Station. The work station is nicely made, however, I find the height too high and the storage drawers too low. Compared with a similar industrial machinist's chest, it is not overpriced, however, I would at least start out with shelves and boxes.

I hope you will follow my advice with starting with bench chisels, as discussed in the top topic "Trick Tips, etc". Some tools are just more difficult to sharpen than others. A 3/4" bench chisel is about as easy as it gets, and can help you learn a lot. For the record, I now have five sharpening 3/4" Irwin Blue Chip chisels, plus several more in other widths. (In hindsight, I should have purchased all 3/4" Irwins. I use these only for sharpening practice and testing. I would not use my grandfather's Stanley 750 chisels for this.

It took me quite a while to outgrow the "precious grinding wheel" notion. Your grinding wheel is a consumable, designed to be worn out. Think of it like the brakes on your car. Both are not inexpensive and last a long time. Both are designed to be replaced when worn out. The precious things are the people riding in your car and the people you built things to please. Use your grinding wheel wisely, but use it. Keep it true and cutting well.

Younger users with good health and eyes can get away with very poor set up and technique (at least sort of). You are still on the young side, but your health and eyes put you nearer the rest of us. We need to work closer to ideal conditions to work well. Light needs to be very good. (I also keep an LED flashlight nearby for odd seeing conditions.) Magnification is our friend. Comfortable work height makes everything better.

Another effect of age is higher expectations. Hence my pickiness for having a true wheel. A true wheel and patience help things go much better.

I could go on and on, however, my grandson has been waiting to use the computer.

Ken

[DaveCH]

Thanks Ken.

I was all set, with a design, to build a sharpening station with lots of drawer space.  I'm really short of storage space at the moment, so the drawer idea made sense.  Having read your post and looked at a other designs, I can see that I was about to build a station that would have been way too high at 800mm.  I've been using the T8 on my MFT3 so far (900mm high) and I thought that a 100mm (4-inch) drop from that would be fine, but I realise now that it all needs a bit more thought.

So no fancy workstation with drawers for now.  I'll just build a temporary table attached to the all and see how it goes.

Cheers
Dave