Adjusting the Angle of Western Knives

[Herman Trivilino]

I'm sharing this article from Cook's Country (a popular PBS television show):

Adjusting the Angle of Western Knives
The 15-degree cutting angle on Eastern knives offers more precision than the 20-degree angle on Western knives. Will sharpening Western knives to a 15-degree angle improve their performance?

To find out, we passed our favorite inexpensive chef's knife through an electric Asian knife sharpener shaving its 20-degree cutting angle down to 15 degrees. The transformation was impressive: With the newly sharpened knife, we noticed less drag on foods as we cut them and enjoyed more precision with the blade.

But before you start altering your knives, keep the following points in mind: Western knives are generally made with a softer variety of steel that is more forgiving to the high-impact style of cutting we do in the West, rendering them too soft to hold a narrower 15-degree angle for very long. Thus, if you change their angle from 20 degrees to 15, they will require more frequent sharpening. (Japanese knives are made from a harder, more brittle steel that holds a narrower edge for longer.) What's more, you will inevitably end up removing a considerable amount of metal from your knife over time. The bottom line: If you want the feel and performance of a 15-degree angle on your blade, you're better off buying a Japanese knife than altering a Western one.

[SharpenADullWitt]

My restaurant owning friend asked me to get him some inexpensive knives out of the sharpening stores "cheap" drawers (old knives from when restaurants did swaps years back).  These all were commercial, forged chef's knives, that he uses on Wings. (cut bones, should really use a cleaver IMHO) A lot of metal is gone already (towards end of life).
What I have seen and learned (neighbor/friend Austrian chef, another friend, Japanese chef), is a cleaver gets used more for the types of cutting we would use a chef's knife for.  Another one they use, at least over here, is a Santoku.  Neither is meant to pivot, like a chef's knife.

[Ken S]

We do not have an either/or situation. Steve does his initial bevel grinding at eighteen degrees.

I might choose my bevel angles on the customer. In my case, I like sharp knives, and my Tormek is directly below the kitchen in the shop.

For a customer who is more interested in durability than extreme sharpness, I would play safe at twenty degrees, or at least seventeen degrees and forty minutes.

Ken

[Jan]

Ken, I am wondering if the angles mentioned in the article quoted by Herman and these mentioned by you are the same? In my understanding, the article from Cook's Country refers to edge angles 15° or 20°, while you are referring to bevel angles 18° or 20°.

Do I understand it correctly?

Jan

[Herman Trivilino]

In my understanding, the article from Cook's Country refers to edge angles 15° or 20°, while you are referring to bevel angles 18° or 20°.

I wondered that, too, Jan. From the context I think they must be bevel angles.

A Western knife with an edge angle of 20° would have bevel angles of 10°. Such a knife would be very uncommon, especially in my kitchen! Plus, it would get dull very very fast.

As to Eastern knives, an edge angle of 15° would mean bevel angles of 7½°. That's not a kitchen knife, that's a razor blade!

[Jan]

Yes, Herman you are correct, otherwise the whole article would be about uncommonly sharp knives.

I was influenced by recent sharpening of my favorite thin vegetable knife. Blade thickness near the handle is 1.3 mm, max. blade width is 17 mm and blade length is 112 mm.



The producer told me that the tapered blade was ground for an edge angle of 6° and the secondary bevel for an edge angle of 20°. Based on my own measurements the tapered blade = primary bevel has an edge angle less than 5°.

This inexpensive knife performs well and does not require frequent sharpening, although it is only stainless steel 420 and 53-55 HRC. 

Jan

[Herman Trivilino]

I have little doubt that the "inexpensive chef's knife" referred to in the article is the very same Victorinox they featured in one of their equipment tests. That's the knife I see them using on every episode. Based on that I bought one and it is indeed an excellent knife in terms of performance and ability to retain an edge.

I really don't understand the appeal of expensive kitchen knives.

[grepper]

I have 3 of those Victorinox knives, the largest being the 8" chef's.

The thin blades hold an edge fairly well, and for most jobs they do well.  Personally, I prefer heavier knife with more heft, but then I don't use them all day long either.  I use a much heavier blade for jobs like cutting a butternut squash in half, as the thin, light blades of these knives don't inspire confidence for jobs like that.

Would I recommend them to a friend?  Sure.  They cost $20 or less.  Hard to beat for the price.

[SharpenADullWitt]

I always hear how those cost $20 or less, but have only seen it in a bundle.  Paying for those by the brand name/country of manufacture.
Seen the same steel, in other brands (sometimes with a white handle), for just over $10, to under $15.

[Ken S]

Perhaps the problem with inexpensive knives is that it is more cost effective to replace them than to sharpen them.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

Three years ago I bought the 8 inch Victorinox Chef's Knife for $27 on Amazon. Is that now it's $35. That's the price I see with my Prime membership.

[Herman Trivilino]

Perhaps the problem with inexpensive knives is that it is more cost effective to replace them than to sharpen them.

If you take care of them I don't see that they wear out. Perhaps it used to be true when wooden handles were attached with rivets. The modern fibrous handles seem to be very robust.

I do think that people who don't sharpen their knives will buy cheap ones because it's more cost effective to replace them. Tormek owners are at the opposite end of the sharpening spectrum. We can just take a few steps from our kitchen to our workshop!

[Stickan]

What I find very useful is that I can test and find the optimal edge degree we use in our household.
I have several Japanese knifes which I chose to have 22 degree and then our European knifes, mostly Mora chef knifes with Sandvik 12C27 steel I have 30 degree on, as most of their knife has from the factory. I am referring to a total degree angel so with the WM-200 you would need to use half the amount.
With some knife-care I sharpen our knifes 2 times a year and hone them on the leather-honingwheel 3-4 times a year. I do have a Dick steel that I hone some knifes on a couple a times a year.
When I help friends with there knifes I mostly use 30 degree or more on hunting knifes it also depends on the steel in the blade.
Every man or woman uses they're knifes in different ways so in general a edge within 30 to 40 degree is normal.

A short story: A friend of mine imports Japanese knifes and got a call from a man who bought 2 expensive knifes for his twin daughters. He had spent time at both their families over Christmas and called to say that one of the knifes was not any good and wanted a change it on warranty. At his first daughters place the knife was very sharp and at his second daughter place the knife was dull, he knew that both was very sharp to start with. Must be something wrong with that knife he thought.
My friend started to ask him how they treated their knifes and it did not take long for the father to understand that the daughters had very different styles of taking care of things and understood that there was no wrong with the knife, it was not taken care of.

High quality steel, correct angle and a good sharpener makes an edge. Taking care of it keeps an edge.

Sincerely,
Stig

[Jan]

Thanks for sharing your views and experience, Stick. 

Do you use the F.Dick diamond-coated sharpening steel?

Jan

[Ken S]

I consulted Stig when designing the kenjig. In the interest  of simplicity, I wanted the basic kenjig to use only one bevel angle. Stig made the same recommendation: thirty degrees for the whole angle, fifteen degrees for each bevel. It works well.

There is  nothing sacred about a fifteen degree half angle. If you work in tougher material and/or want a more durable edge, increase the angle to around twenty degrees. The edge will not be quite as keen, but should last longer. The choice is  yours. I suggest you start out with fifteen degrees. Master that before changing.

Ken