a new angle setting tool

[Jan]

Rick, I have not manufactured my metallic jig myself, I have received it as prototype for testing. 

My Al jigs were cut with abrasive waterjet using high pressure water and garnet and aluminum oxide as abrasive.   

As far as I know the holes for the USB were not reamed. It may be good to experiment with the hole diameter to avoid excessive play on the USbar.

In my thinking the 5/8"bearings will work fine. The difference to 16 mm is negligible.

A larger uncertainty is in selecting the appropriate offset. This offset will make your jig to work slightly more exact for larger or smaller wheels.

Jan

[RickKrung]

...snip...
It may be good to experiment with the hole diameter to avoid excessive play on the USbar.

A larger uncertainty is in selecting the appropriate offset. This offset will make your jig to work slightly more exact for larger or smaller wheels.

Jan

Do you have a recommendation on the appropriate offset? 

I was planning on using the offset for a 250mm wheel.  I have one of the three diamond wheels now, the other two are on backorder.  I also have an SJ wheel that is still very close to 250mm (248mm).  The smaller of the two, SG and SB wheels is 245mm but I do not expect to use them much in the future.  Given the nature of use of the SJ wheel, I do not expect it to wear down fast. 

Since 250mm is at the upper extreme, I can see where using an offset for something slightly less could be appropriate but "close enough" and maintain the consistency for the unchanging diamond wheels. 

Edit: I do wonder which way the error will go, say, using a jig for 250mm wheels on a decreasing diameter (SJ) stone.  Will it increase or decrease the angle?  Visually thinking about it, I think it will increase the angle. 

Also, I do plan on experimenting with the reamer, trying it on some scrap alum. to see whether and how much it grabs overlaping holes and what that may do to the resultant hole.  At the very least, I can make the jigs without the holes overlapping, but it means making at least three jigs.  (12, 18, 24º; 10, 16, 22º; 15, 22.5º)

Rick

[Ken S]

Rick,

You arrived late to the party. The two small wheels are borrowed directly from the TTS-100. Their purpose is to automatically self compensate for differences in wheel diameter. This was discussed on the forum several years ago. Note that the same TTS-100 works for either the T4 or the T7/8. The advantage of the more sophisticated jigs over the original kenjig is that they do not require lengthening the Distance slot as the wheel wears.

Jan made an interesting observation about the two wheels. When both wheels cannot make contact with the grinding wheel, it is time for a new grinding wheel.

I think the TTS-100 is Tormek's most useful set up tool by a wide margin. When combined with the 186 gouge jig, in my opinion, we have Tormek's most advanced combination. I have used the TTS-100 to set up my chisels and planes from almost when I first began using my Tormek. I like the improved speed and consistency.

I have never understood why Tormek has not used its patented auto correct wheen on the TTS-100 with other tool set ups.

Ken

[RickKrung]

Rick,

You arrived late to the party. The two small wheels are borrowed directly from the TTS-100. Their purpose is to automatically self compensate for differences in wheel diameter. This was discussed on the forum several years ago. Note that the same TTS-100 works for either the T4 or the T7/8. The advantage of the more sophisticated jigs over the original kenjig is that they do not require lengthening the Distance slot as the wheel wears.
...snip...
Ken

No doubt I did arrive too late on that.  I have no problem accepting and using the two small discs as intended.  Perhaps I did not understand Jan's question about the appropriated offset and attempted to answer it "inappropriately". 

No matter.  I'm moving forward with my version of the jig and will report back when I have something more. 

Rick

[Ken S]

Rick,

I will look forward to seeing your new jig!

Ken

[RickKrung]

Rick,

I will look forward to seeing your new jig!

Ken

Be careful what you wish for

[cbwx34]

...
You arrived late to the party. The two small wheels are borrowed directly from the TTS-100. Their purpose is to automatically self compensate for differences in wheel diameter. This was discussed on the forum several years ago. Note that the same TTS-100 works for either the T4 or the T7/8. The advantage of the more sophisticated jigs over the original kenjig is that they do not require lengthening the Distance slot as the wheel wears.
...

I'm not sure technically this is correct... that it "self compensates for differences in wheel diameter".  If I understand this quote from Jan...

...
I have considered 250 mm and 160 mm stones and have found shift of the tangent line 1.4 mm and 2.1 mm respectively.
...

... there is a difference, but it's so small (.7mm), it doesn't matter?  For comparison, (probably not a direct correlation), a 1mm difference in wheel diameter, or a 1mm difference in USB height is less than 1 degree difference (at the extreme... much less in smaller changes).

I guess the question would be what difference in USB position there would be if you used the jig that was made for 250mm wheel on a 160mm wheel... if it's a direct correlation of .7mm... or slightly more or less?

At any rate, shouldn't matter much... I guess you could split the "offset" difference, and it would be even less of an issue?... but practically, doubt you could tell the difference.   (If I understand this part...) 

[RickKrung]

.snip...
I guess the question would be what difference in USB position there would be if you used the jig that was made for 250mm wheel on a 160mm wheel... if it's a direct correlation of .7mm... or slightly more or less?

At any rate, shouldn't matter much... I guess you could split the "offset" difference, and it would be even less of an issue?... but practically, doubt you could tell the difference.   (If I understand this part...) 

...snip...
I was planning on using the offset for a 250mm wheel.  I have one of the three diamond wheels now, the other two are on backorder.  I also have an SJ wheel that is still very close to 250mm (248mm).  The smaller of the two, SG and SB wheels is 245mm but I do not expect to use them much in the future.  Given the nature of use of the SJ wheel, I do not expect it to wear down fast. 

Since 250mm is at the upper extreme, I can see where using an offset for something slightly less could be appropriate but "close enough" and maintain the consistency for the unchanging diamond wheels. 
...snip...

Rick

It may matter for some. 

For my anticipated use, I think it is immaterial.  Given that I expect to be using the diamond wheels for grinding and the SJ wheel for deburring/polishing, I do not expect to get into the realm of a small diameter SJ wheel very soon and I think I would replace it by the time it gets to 200mm. 

I have moved on, to making a couple test bed jigs to determine if they even work for my purpose.  If so, I'll make a more complicated multi-angle jig(s). 

Rick

[RickKrung]

...snip...
I have moved on, to making a couple test bed jigs to determine if they even work for my purpose.  If so, I'll make a more complicated multi-angle jig(s). 

Rick

I completed two test beds for the HanJig, 16º and 18º.  I mounted 5/8" precision bearings on shoulder bolts for the contact discs and painted "spokes" on the exterior race so rotation could be easily seen.  Works pretty good (watch the videos).


Here are three videos showing adjustment of the jigs, starting with the USB set at one increment (number on the USB nut, 0.21mm/0.008") lower than centered.  That video shows the right or upper bearing turning only. 
https://vimeo.com/286976178

The second video shows the USB set at one increment above center, showing the left or lower bearing turning only.
https://vimeo.com/286976129

The third video shows the USB centered so that both bearings are turning. 
https://vimeo.com/286976155

Finally, a blade ground with the DF250 diamond wheel (left side of frame) followed by honing on the leather wheel (right side of frame), both set with the HanJig.  (My honing wheel measures 215mm).


I cannot tell where the transition is, and all the black marker is gone from the entire bevel.  I've not done much honing but I think I've noticed that the angle doesn't have to be that close for all the marker to be removed by the honing wheel.  I honed both sides of the blade and check the sharpness: 180 BESS, average of three locations.  That is better by 20-40 points that I had previously been able to achieve with the DF250 and honing wheel. 

What I can tell you is that these results were achieved far faster and with far less fiddling with the USB after setting the angle than when using apps and my method of transferring the USB height to the USB/machine.  That is, the HanJig as set above, with no further testing of how much black was removed, blacking and checking again, and again if necessary, as has been necessary previously.  All knife jig projections are 139mm.  When using an app, for transferring the USB height from the app to the USB, I use pattern maker's marking gauge, set from the extension rod on a precision digital caliper, which is set to 0.XXmm base on the app output.  I am quite comfortable with this method and feel it is as accurate as I can get. 

Further trials are needed, particularly with the SB stone and the SJ wheel, which is what I have been primarily using, and with the DF250 and SJ wheels, which is where I expect to be going.  I am very encouraged by these preliminary results. 

Rick

[RichColvin]

Rick,

Are you saying the HanJig is faster than calculating and measuring, or do I have your meaning backwards?

Rich

[RickKrung]

Rick,

Are you saying the HanJig is faster than calculating and measuring, or do I have your meaning backwards?

Rich

Yes, I mean the HanJig is faster.  Sorry, I reread my post above and see how it was confusing.  I edited it, using BOLD, but it still isn't as clear as it could be. 

I have now run the same blade with the SB/SJ and DF/SJ using the HanJig.  Same increase in speed and consistency.  When changing from from one wheel to another and setting the angle with the HanJig, I have not had to make any further adjustments of the USB.  Just put the knife/jig in place and go. 

SB/SJ alone: average of 305 BESS.  Followed by stopping using a SharpPAD: average 133 BESS
DF/SJ alone: average of 272 BESS.  Followed by stopping using a SharpPAD: average 165 BESS

These are not as sharp as the scores I was used to getting with just the SB/SJ stone (90-130 BESS), but I was taking a lot longer with them.  Maybe some of the fiddling was helping.  The speed and ease of use of the HanJig is impressive and a pleasure, and it is producing results I would take to a Farmer's Market - as sharp or sharper than a utility razor blade. 

The SB/SJ combination was easy.  No change of water in the tray.  I have not brought myself to use the ACC laced water required for the DF wheel with the SB or SJ wheel, due to a perception of contamination of the diamond stone.  So, I poured out the SB/SJ water and put in DF/ACC to use the DF wheel and then re-exchanged when going to the SJ wheel.  Not a procedure I want to use at a Farmer's Market.  Makes me think I'd use the SB/SJ for routine blades and hold the DF in reserve.  I'm sure I'll get over the hesitancy to use the ACC water with the SB/SJ stones, just not there yet. 

One thing about my trials so far is that I've been re-using the same blade.  That is not what will be more common - working different blades each time.  More testing is still in order. 

Rick

[cbwx34]

...
SB/SJ alone: average of 305 BESS.  Followed by stopping using a SharpPAD: average 133 BESS
DF/SJ alone: average of 272 BESS.  Followed by stopping using a SharpPAD: average 165 BESS
...

Have you tried going from the SB or DF wheel straight to the SharpPad (skip the SJ), and see what score you get?

[RickKrung]

Have you tried going from the SB or DF wheel straight to the SharpPad (skip the SJ), and see what score you get?

Yes, 226 BESS for the brand new DF250, which may improve with use.  I have not for the SB stone. 

Rick

[cbwx34]

Have you tried going from the SB or DF wheel straight to the SharpPad (skip the SJ), and see what score you get?

Yes, 226 BESS for the brand new DF250, which may improve with use.  I have not for the SB stone. 

Rick

Ah.  Bummer (SharpPad didn't work as well as I hoped). 

...
Finally, a blade ground with the DF250 diamond wheel (left side of frame) followed by honing on the leather wheel (right side of frame), both set with the HanJig.  (My honing wheel measures 215mm).

I cannot tell where the transition is, and all the black marker is gone from the entire bevel.  I've not done much honing but I think I've noticed that the angle doesn't have to be that close for all the marker to be removed by the honing wheel.  I honed both sides of the blade and check the sharpness: 180 BESS, average of three locations.  That is better by 20-40 points that I had previously been able to achieve with the DF250 and honing wheel. 

So... SharpPad after Leather Wheel (instead of SJ wheel) results? (180 is better than what you're getting with the SJ wheel...).

(I really think swapping wheels is going to quickly become an issue if you get busy, is my point here).

Another thing you might try, just to see how well your new jig is working, is, after setting the USB, occasionally check the measurement (the "old way"), and see if it's consistent.

[RickKrung]

Ah.  Bummer (SharpPad didn't work as well as I hoped). 

I wouldn't put much stock in that one.  It was a brand new DF wheel, first time used.  And, I would not expect as good a result, going directly to it from a grind stone.  I love the SharpPAD, but I don't think it was designed for that big of a jump. 

So... SharpPad after Leather Wheel (instead of SJ wheel) results? (180 is better than what you're getting with the SJ wheel...).

Possibly, if the SharpPAD were used after the Leather Wheel.  I don't think it is fair to make that comparison now.  These were single trials, no replication. The numbers are too close together to say with any certainty there is any real difference, whatever the finishing method.  I think the main take-away is that this jig does a good, fast job of consistently setting the angle and would be very useful in a more production-like, particularly where wheel swapping is involved. 

(I really think swapping wheels is going to quickly become an issue if you get busy, is my point here).

I agree, but I am hoping that will not be my problem the first or second time out.  No one currently knows the service will be available and the market is quite small.

Another thing you might try, just to see how well your new jig is working, is, after setting the USB, occasionally check the measurement (the "old way"), and see if it's consistent.

Yes, I am interested in checking that out.  A whole number on the USB is actually a lot of adjustment range.  I did like that the HanJig was quick to get centered, and that centered point is what should be compared to other methods of setting the USB height.  There will still remain the time required to complete a four-step process (app/caliper/marking gauge/USB setting) vs. the single step with the HanJig.  An improved accuracy of the former would have to be a very convincing need vs the speed of a "very good enough" single step.  We'll see.