TT-50 and the Japanese Water Stone

[RustD]

I trued up my new stone for the first time and had some issues. When I got to the inside of the stone, parts of it flaked off leaving a rough edge not a sharp edge. I have not had an issue with my other stone or the starting outside edge. I used the fine stone grader and a Nagura Stone to smooth the surface. The stone put a nice polish on the edge of the knives I sharpened.
Is this flaking/crumbling of the edge normal?

[jeffs55]

I have a Japanese water stone but it is not made by Tormek. In my humble opinion it is an unnecessary luxury. The honing wheel is more than adequate. I have never trued the stone that I have because I seldom use it for the above stated reason.

[RustD]

After sleeping on it, I think maybe I didn't let it soak long enough the first time. The flakes looked dry. I agree it is not necessary, but for my best knives the polished look lets me brag to my friends.
Thanks for the response.

[wootz]

I see the same with my SJ, and mine was trued after 1-2 hours of wet use. I've trued it 3 times by now.
And it is not only truing with TT-50 - unclogging with the fine side of the grading stone leaves a ragged edge on the wheel as well.
Had another look after reading your post, and true, the inner edge got dented more than the outer, but the outer was not spared either.

I tried using a finer 5000 grit Japanese whetstone to grade the wheel, all the same - I mean smooths the stone surface, but detrimental for the edges.
I also tried unclogging/grading with a hard ceramic 2000 grit stone - definitely more damaging.
After all experimenting, I stick to the fine side of the Tormek grading stone, but I haven't tried Nagura yet.

What is your impression of Nagura Stone use on the SJ for declogging/grading? Are you using a Nagura made for finer grits?

(I can't agree with jeffs55.
The Japanese SJ-250 delivers more than the honing wheel, and for high end knives I cannot skip it.)

[RustD]

I have only done 3 knives with the new water stone, so I don't know about the Nagura stone. It probably doesn't help. It forms a slurry on my Japanese bench stones. I'm guessing the slurry is all washed off by the Tormek water. It might grade it finer, but it will take a lot of trials before I can tell. The Tormek water stone made a mirror finish on the edge.I enjoy sharpening with all the guides and jigs that I have (Lansky, bench stones, glass and 3M abrasive). I am going to soak the Japanese stone longer next time.

[Ken S]

I think this is a question which requires some expertise from Sweden.

Jeff Farris made an interesting comment about the SJ wheel. He stated that the fine graded surface of the SG wheel dressed with the fine stone grader is very thin. The 4000 grit fine surface of the SJ wheel runs throught the entire wheel.

I agree with Jeff55 that the SJ wheel is expensive and not really necessary for most general work. It is designed for the highest quality edges. The use of the leather honing wheel can be a stand in for much work, however, it is not the same thing for top drawer edges.

I believe both the SJ and SB wheels have more potential than is being realized with the present lack of in depth training material.

Ken

[RustD]

Thanks Ken. I agree the stone is expensive for a hobbyist like me and a professional would go faster and get a great edge with the leather hone and paste. Someone building wall hanger shiny knives might really might like it. The chips on the inside edge are small and don't affect the final finish. I am still hoping that a longer soak in water will solve it next time I put the TT-50 to it.

[RustD]

I soaked the stone in water for an hour, then graded it with the fine side of the grading stone. It took some of the rough edge off. Got a great edge and a polished finish on the knives I sharpened last night.

[Stickan]

Try to use less "speed" when you reach the edge of the stone, that will minimize the problem with flakes on the edge.

Sincerly,
Stig

[RustD]

I will thanks. It also seems to need a very thin cut with the truing tool.

[wootz]

Thanks for sharing your experience - next time will be long soaking the SJ before truing.
And my two cents. For declogging and cleaning the surface between sharpenings, I started using Nagura intended for #4000+, and find it as effective but more gentle than the standard grading stone; also after Nagura the surface grit definitely feels finer.

[Ken S]

As part of sharpening my kitchen knives today, I used my SJ-250 (Japanese waterstone) for the first time. I wanted to try the truing tool with it. I am a bit gunshy with the truing tool. I do a cut in two or three passes someone else might do in just one pass. In this case, caution worked very well. My first pass barely touched the high spots. My knives had left the surface of the stone darkened. With each of the several passes which followed, I gradually removed more of the darkened area. The last pass left the entire surface clean. I advanced the diamond cutter approximately half a number for each pass. Granted, this is more time consuming, however, the entire process was very smooth and had no flaking.

Ken

[RustD]

Definitely half a number or less. A whole number really digs into the soft stone.

[wootz]

I revive this topic as I keep getting my Japanese stones edges chipped from truing with TT-50.
I was searching this forum, and tumbled upon explanation by Ionut.
Below is compilation of Ionut's comments describing the problem and solution.

"The diamond holder head on the truing tool has a play which will cause pretty severe chipping on the edge at the exit side of the stone if that play is not removed.

...On the Tomrek Japanese stone regardless how fast you go it will chip the exit edge of the stone badly, I usually take very small cuts not more than 1/12 on the adjustment wheel and whenever I've done that I chipped my stone.

... On the 220 stone there is a different story, if I use the TT-50 as it is at the max 90 seconds  truing speed it the grinding surface of the stone is full of ditches and even though that does not affect the cutting I do not like the surface left on the stone and more than that when such a surface needs to be graded to 1000  takes a longer time to bring it there.

The diamond holder head on the truing tool has a play which will cause pretty severe chipping on the edge at the exit side of the stone if that play is not removed. You can remove the play by simply using an electric tie that goes through the head and gets tied on the reference back of the truing tool.
The tie should go through the diamond housing and wrapped over the reference surface. It will reduce the vibration to the point where you can advance the diamond head as slow as you want creating a very fine surface on the stone with almost no scratches marks.
...tied mine as tight just to allow the head to move and  when I did that the TT-50 was mounted on the Universal Support.

... Also I would suggest to use the grader on the Japanese stone parallel with the stone and not across it, that way will be less likely to bring the stone out of square by just cleaning it. ...use only the fine side of the grader stone and with light pressure holding the grader along with the grinding stone and not across it so the risk of taking it out of square is minimized."

[amikek]

I revive this topic as I keep getting my Japanese stones edges chipped from truing with TT-50.
I was searching this forum, and tumbled upon explanation by Ionut.
Below is compilation of Ionut's comments describing the problem and solution.

"The diamond holder head on the truing tool has a play which will cause pretty severe chipping on the edge at the exit side of the stone if that play is not removed.

...The diamond holder head on the truing tool has a play which will cause pretty severe chipping on the edge at the exit side of the stone if that play is not removed. You can remove the play by simply using an electric tie that goes through the head and gets tied on the reference back of the truing tool.
The tie should go through the diamond housing and wrapped over the reference surface. It will reduce the vibration to the point where you can advance the diamond head as slow as you want creating a very fine surface on the stone with almost no scratches marks.
...tied mine as tight just to allow the head to move and  when I did that the TT-50 was mounted on the Universal Support.

I've noticed this play (don't have an SJ stone) and didn't feel comfortable about it, but noticed no issue with the edges. Do most use plastic tie wraps to solve this? I'm going to try it next true up. Thanks!