Help for decision

[Ken S]

"I wonder if some functionalities are embedded or can be added : (on oldies and T4/T7 stations)
1) Variable speed
2) Clockwise and anticlockwise spinning
3) Automatic torque adjustment"

Tournevis, I believe you would be better served by just using the Tormek for its designed purpose. I am not opposed to innovation, however, I think there was good planning involved in the Tormek.

1) Variable speed. The speed limitation is the point where water would leave the trough. I do not see where slight variation is motor speed would bring any real benefit.

2) Clockwise and anti clockwise spinning. This might be useful, however, I am sure the reason it is not designed into the Tormek is the possibility of accidentally using the leather honing wheel revolving into the edge. This would be unsafe.

3) Automatic torque adjustment. Why? You could take your tormek to a local custom machine shop and have it modified to have all these things. However, you would probably end up with a Tormek costing at least twice what a new unit would cost, and not having any more practical functionality.

I certainly do not mean to discourage creativity, however, I would suggest you begin by spending some real quality sharpening time with a three quarter inch (19mm) bench chisel. Learn how the Tormek works with the most basic tool to sharpen. Learn the differences in sound and feel with sharpening. A solid knowledge of the basics will stand by you very well.

Ken

[Tournevis]

Ken,
My thoughts about Tormek station are quite positive. 
"Designed for sharpening, taking in account key parameters in purpose"
Angle setting, Jigs to ensure repeatability, grinding, honing, water-cooled etc..etc..
I think that Tormek is part of high end solution.
To make an analogy with car market, I would say top 5 of deluxe worldwide car makers.
Before spending a significant budget on the solution, I am trying to evaluate "how far" Tormek is differentiated from other makers.
That's why I Raised 3 questions. But perhaps they are too theorytical at your eyes.
1) Variable speed. For me, in fine sharpening, one of the main parameter is the "cutting speed". The equation is simple to understand, 250 mm diameter X constant rpm will not equal to 175 mm diameter X constant rpm. So the cutting speed will have big variation day after day usage. And depending on the hardness of the steel we deal with, It may have a significant quality impact.
2) Clockwise and anti clockwise spinning. At this stage, the solution is to turn the station by 180° to swap grinding to honing operation, for that you need the rotation base accessory, otherwise, operator need to turn around the station. From my point of view, a reverse switch will solve the dilemma and reduce the footprint for workspace and facilitate workspace lighting for "safety" reason.
3) Automatic torque adjustment. As I understand today, but I might be wrong, the sharpening operation is still very "operator dependent" meaning the result will depend on the force you will apply on the assembly of knife and jig and mostly how consistently you will apply it, specially when you will have to rotate the blade when it curves. That's why my question.

You are absolutely right, once more, I should Learn how the Tormek works with the most basic tool to sharpen and acquire much more knowledge of basics on sharpening. I will certainly invest on a new T4 station as you suggested.
My dream is to cover all kind of sharpening needs of my home.
Cooking : Blender blade, meat slicing disk, Mandoline blades, all sort of knifes, scissors
Workshop : chisels, cutters, electrician knife, scissors, etc.

And later on, perhaps, we can open a topic to share some "design" continuous improvements or jig wish-list. 
Cheers
Sheang

[Herman Trivilino]

1) Variable speed. For me, in fine sharpening, one of the main parameter is the "cutting speed". The equation is simple to understand, 250 mm diameter X constant rpm will not equal to 175 mm diameter X constant rpm. So the cutting speed will have big variation day after day usage. And depending on the hardness of the steel we deal with, It may have a significant quality impact.

In my experience this is a small difference that doesn't have a significant effect on the grinding operation.

2) Clockwise and anti clockwise spinning. At this stage, the solution is to turn the station by 180° to swap grinding to honing operation, for that you need the rotation base accessory, otherwise, operator need to turn around the station. From my point of view, a reverse switch will solve the dilemma and reduce the footprint for workspace and facilitate workspace lighting for "safety" reason.

A simple reverse switch would reverse the direction of rotation of the motor but that wouldn't work because the drive wheel would then slip.

3) Automatic torque adjustment. As I understand today, but I might be wrong, the sharpening operation is still very "operator dependent" meaning the result will depend on the force you will apply on the assembly of knife and jig and mostly how consistently you will apply it, specially when you will have to rotate the blade when it curves. That's why my question.

I don't understand how an automatic torque adjustment would compensate for the amount of force applied by the operator. The amount of steel removed at any one location depends not only on how much force is applied by the operator but also on how much time the operator spends grinding at that location.

[Ken S]

Tournevis,

i would like to make one more comment regarding purchasing an older, used Tormek. We have a number of members of this forum who happily use older Tormeks. Some have had their machines for a long time, and some purchased them already used. As with an older automobile, an experienced mechanic can use anything mechanical which is older more easily than a beginner. You may eventually become an experienced Tormek user, and I hope you do. However, for the present, as a beginner, I believe you would be better suited with a new machine.

I believe you will be able to sharpen many of the items on your wish list with the Tormek. Some will require more experience than others. I would suggest you take a careful look at the marketing side of the Tormek website. Anything not listed there is probably not easily sharpened with a Tormek. I am sure the marketing department wants to put its best foot forward.

I believe the Tormek is well designed for its intended purpose. in skilled hands it can be surprisingly versatile. That does not imply that it is equal to much more expensive specialty equipment. I think you are imposing illogical constraints with your requirements. To me, the deciding factor should be can the Tormek produce sharp edges?

I have used the Tormek with and without the rotating base. Even now that I have one, I sometimes do not bother with it. Picking up the Tormek to turn it around is not a big deal, especially with the T4. Mine is set up where it is often just as easy to move to the other side of the bench. I consider the rotating base a nice to have accessory. You will probably want it at some point. I would not feel pressured to purchase one right away. Mine happened to come as part of an extra package deal with my second T7. I do not consider it a priority. (My first T7 was stolen during a home burglary.)

By the time your grinding wheel has worn to 175mm, hopefully you will have the experience to use your Tormek more efficiently. Your expertise should more than compensate for any diminishment in surface feet per minute.

One of the design features I especially like about the Tormek is that it works well in a wide range of torque. You can really lean on it. Or, if one is older and more prone to pain in the hands, the Tormek can be used with very light pressure. It takes a little longer with lighter pressure, but hopefully experience will also help compensate for that.

The Tormek is not a Rolls Royce; nor is it priced that way.It is a well designed and built tool with a long life and capable of much fine service. I hope you will enjoy it as such. Some of my tools, hand and power, originally belonged to my grandfathers. I hope my grandchildren will enjoy using my Tormek.

Do keep us posted.

Ken

[Tournevis]

Ken,
Thanks for your comments.
I just received 2 Quote for new machines and will have a couple of questions before final decision.
First quote is T4 + SJ-200 + HTK-706 + RB-180 + TT-50 = 776 Euro
Second quote is T7+SJ-250 + HTK-706 + RB-180 = 987 Euro
The delta is 211 Euro.
Now what do I have for 211 Euro ?

motor life time :T4 = 10K hours, T7 = 25K
Working time : T4 = 30 minutes per hour, T7 = continuous running
Warranty : T4 = 7 years, T7 = 7+3 = 10 years

My thought is that T4 suitable to my needs and learning phase. T7 is really for professional which is not my case.
But I scare a little bit about the fact that I can run only 30Mn/hour. Does that mean that it will overheat quickly ? Is there a thermal automatic breaker inside ?

All advices will be appreciated
Sheang

[Ken S]

I wish Tormek would get past this thirty minute nonsense. I can not imagine burning out a motor with the T4. If that was indeed a real issue, Tormek would not include the seven year warranty. As I have stated earlier, if a user should have a motor problem within seven years, Tormek will correct the problem at no charge. The zinc casting machined housing top design change from the T3 to the T4 acts as a heat dissipater. I have personally seen a T4 running almost continually all day. There was no problem with it. toward the end of the day, I even touched the top with my hand. It felt only mildly warm. Based on my experience, I ignore the thirty minute idea.

Regarding the motor life time: If you are young and starting a business where you will be continually be running your (only) Tormek eight hours a day or more every day, After a couple decades you might wish you had purchased the T7. For the home user, you won't live long enough to get past the theoretical motor life. Unless you are in a heavy industrial situation, I would not be concerned.

I would focus on your needs and the work environment. The T4 will certainly more than satisfy your needs requirements. If you have a large work area with a dedicated sharpening station, the T7 might be the preferred choice. If you have a smaller work area and need to move your Tormek around from time to time, or if you have any mobile thoughts, I would opt for the lighter, smaller T4. "Mobile" might include bringing your Tormek when invited to a friend's home for dinner. Sharpening your friend's knives would make a very considerate thank you for a good meal.

I have mixed emotions on the kits. I bought my jigs individually. I do not have an ax jig. Neither do I have an ax. If you plan to sharpen all the tools included in the jig kit, the kit is probably a good idea. If money is tight, I would initially forego the SJ wheel and rotating base unless you get them at a discount while purchasing your main unit. You can always add them later should you decide you need them.

I think of the T4 as a lifetime investment, suitable for far more than your "learning phase".

Keep thinking and keep posting.

Ken

[Tournevis]

I ignore the thirty minute idea.

Ok then, I 'll forget this but why Tormek is writing this on their documentation ?

Regarding the motor life time: If you are young and starting a business where you will be continually be running your (only) Tormek eight hours a day or more every day, After a couple decades you might wish you had purchased the T7. For the home user, you won't live long enough to get past the theoretical motor life. Unless you are in a heavy industrial situation, I would not be concerned.

Yes I am young, I am only 62 but it's not my intention to start a business 

I would focus on your needs and the work environment. The T4 will certainly more than satisfy your needs requirements. If you have a large work area with a dedicated sharpening station, the T7 might be the preferred choice. If you have a smaller work area and need to move your Tormek around from time to time, or if you have any mobile thoughts, I would opt for the lighter, smaller T4. "Mobile" might include bringing your Tormek when invited to a friend's home for dinner. Sharpening your friend's knives would make a very considerate thank you for a good meal.

I have limited work space and need to tidy everything after each task. I like the idea to bring the Mobile T4 to a dinner instead of bringing flowers or/and wine !  (Any idea on how to tell this to my darling ?)

I have mixed emotions on the kits. I bought my jigs individually. I do not have an ax jig. Neither do I have an ax. If you plan to sharpen all the tools included in the jig kit, the kit is probably a good idea. If money is tight, I would initially forego the SJ wheel and rotating base unless you get them at a discount while purchasing your main unit. You can always add them later should you decide you need them.

Globally, I got a 22% discount on retailed public price on everything. Example T4 418,80 discounted to 354, T7 703,20 discounted to 539, HTK-706 183,3 discounted to 143.
That's why I prefer to order SJ and Rotating base now. These conditions are available until the end of July only. You know, always the same commercial argument.

So it's decided, I will place the order of T4 configuration tomorrow unless some expert come up with valid argument.
Thanks to all and special thanks to Ken to guide me in the first steps of a long journey. 
Sheang

[Ken S]

That kind of a discount is hard to pass up! My one suggestion would be to consider the diamond truing tool and the SE-76 square edge jig. You will need the truing tool to keep the grinding wheel true. The truing tool is part of the T7 package, so most of us forget about needing to purchase it with the T4. (I forgot this time.) It is essential. I sharpen mostly chisels, so, for me, the SE-76 is my main jig. If you do not sharpen chisels, you may not need one. It is easily added later, if need be. My priority suggestion would be to place the truing tool before the SJ wheel or the rotating base.   

Bon chance! (Please excuse my very limited French.)

Keep us posted.

Ken

[Tournevis]

First quote is T4 + SJ-200 + HTK-706 + RB-180 + TT-50 = 776 Euro

Ken,
The truing tool is TT-50 reference ?
If yes, it is included in my T4 Quote above.
If not, tell me what's the Tormek part number, I'll order it.
Merci beaucoup
Sheang

[Ken S]

Yes, that is the correct part number.

Ken

[Ken S]

Tournevis,

You ask some very good questions; I am glad you do. This forum is designed for sharing information. None of us begins with the answers. None of us has all the answers. We an all expand our knowledge through dialogue.

Keep exploring and asking questions!

Ken

[Tournevis]

Ken,
I really appreciated your help.
Today, I was about to place the order to the supplier from whom I got the quote we are talking about.
Checking my email, I got another proposal at 720 Euro instead of 776 best price.
I was confused and start to investigate what's going on. My first idea was to check who is authorised dealer in France, therefore I go clicked on "Where to buy" on Tormek AB site. And when I click on the link it show up a page which have nothing to do with Tormek.
So I am lost and I am afraid to have to postpone my decision to buy until I'll get clear view of Tormek distribution in France and associated service providing. It's useless to have 7 years warranty if nobody can provide the service.
Then, I though about Amazon in France where I have an account. They do display Tormek but a close check reveal that vendors are based in Germany and their price are out of market.
In conclusion, could you help me to find out "what's going on in France ?"
Is Tormek AB is aware of this situation ?
And finally, the most important for me "who is authorised dealer for Tormek in France" ?
With this list, I can check to whom I can order my T4 station.
Sheang

[Stickan]

Hi,

RBE Innovation Systems
Z.I. rue Gustave Eiffel
02200 Villeneuve-Saint-Germain
Tel. 03-23 73 85 17
Fax. 03-23 73 17 78
rbe@groupe-bvd.com
www.rbemachines.com

Please call them and thay will help you to get your Tormek. Then the machine will come with the right manuals in French too.
If you buy a machine outside France you will get the Handbook and manuals of that country.

Best, Stig

[Tournevis]

Thanks stig,
Did you ckecked their  website link ?
As you advise, I'll call them to obtain the French vendor list.
Regards, Sheang

[Tournevis]

Hello All,
D day for me today.
I just received all package of my T4

Now time for UN-boxing and discovery
Hurray
Thanks for your help.