Help for decision

[Tournevis]

Hello,
I am a newcomer in the Tormek community and I am French, so forgive my broken English in advance.
Could you give some advice on my case and help me to make a decision.
I am looking for a Tormek station to sharpen my knifes collection. (Mostly Global Knife) and few scissors.
On internet, I found a second hand Tormek Supergrind 2000 (sea attached photo)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B17r4s9bvmkgZkljNUlWbDlBYXhkQlhZZnBSaUU0cDJxMXlF/edit?usp=drive_web
It is 10 year plus age and the selling price is 300 Euro.
Is it wise to buy this machine knowing that I'll have to upgrade it with :
MSK-250 Kit
LA-220 part because the leather honing wheel seems damaged on the picture
and ideally the grinding stone need to be replaced by SJ-250 Japanese water-stone to suit my usage.
Plus few jigs as TT-50, SP-50, SVX-150,SVM-00 etc.
I can't find the price for MSK-250 Kit , but the global budget with all part could be another 400  to 500 Euro.
And a brand new T7 standard station is sold at 539 Euro and I have to add HT-706 Hand tools kit and a SJ-250 stone.
What are your advice on this case ? what should be my best offer to buy this used machine ?
Is the Motor will handle 10 more year ?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Regards

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Tournevis.

Looking at the photo, it seems like the grinding wheel has worn down to somewhere between 200 and 220 millimeters diameter. it still has some useful life, however, most of it is already been used. With your cost calculations, I would factor in the cost of a replacement SG-250 grinding wheel.

I would suggest you look into a new Tormek T4. I have used both the T4 and T7. For your collection of knives, the T4 is more than adequate. You would be getting a new machine with seven year warranty. I believe you wold be getting much more tormek for your Euros with a new T4.

Keep us posted.

Ken

[Elden]

   Welcome to the forum, Sheang.

   I agree with Ken, consider very carefully before buying a used Tormek. There have been other posts written previously in regard to this. I personally have suffered the rusted drive shaft and cracked grinding wheel issue due to the rusting of the shaft. The new cost of a unit can quickly become attractive in comparison to some of the required repairs on an older unit.

[jeffs55]

I suggest the T7. There has been a long history of debate over which to buy, the T7 or T4. Remember my motto," you can use less of more but you cannot make more of less". That means that you can eat half a loaf of bread but you cannot make a whole loaf from a half.

[Ken S]

To follow through on Jeff's motto, why would one pay for a whole loaf of bread just to make one sandwich?

If cost does not matter, a new T7 would certainly serve your needs. If cost is an important consideration, I believe a new T4 would be more cost effective than either a new or older T7 or Supergrind. I base this belief on having worked with both a T4 and a T7. In my opinion, I find little difference between the capabilities of the T4 and T7. Certainly knives and scissors are well within the capability of the T4.

Ken

[jeffs55]

Ken, what if you get hungry later?

[Ken S]

Jeff,

I was able to grind off about the same amount of a metal lathe tool bit with the T 4 and T7 in the same time. So, with the price difference between these, the T 4 owner has grocery money left over.

Ken

[Tournevis]

Thanks to all for your input and comments 
I'll will seriously consider the T4 .
Let's estimate the cost of T4 + SJ-200 + HT-706
In the same time, I'll make a honest offer to the 2000 owner and see what's his position, meaning 100 Euro vs 300 Euro for the value of jigs.
Do someone has detailed technical data sheet and reference of the Supergrind 2000 electrical motor ?
I wonder if some functionalities are embedded or can be added : (on oldies and T4/T7 stations)
1) Variable speed
2) Clockwise and anticlockwise spinning
3) Automatic torque adjustment

Waiting to read your valuable and appreciated answers.

[Jan]

I wonder if some functionalities are embedded or can be added : (on oldies and T4/T7 stations)
1) Variable speed
2) Clockwise and anticlockwise spinning
3) Automatic torque adjustment

Waiting to read your valuable and appreciated answers.

Sheang,

None of the three options you are mentioning is implemented on current T7 and T4 models, which means that it cannot be added to Tormek Supergrind 2000 as a Tormek supported upgrade.

Jan

[jeffs55]

Tournevis,
As mentioned previously this the topic of which to buy has been talked to death on this forum. Ken S is a major fan of the T4 and I am not. I am going to say one more thing to you and then you have to make your own decision. On 8-1-2010 "Joe" asked this question,
"How far down do you let your stone wear before you order a new one? At what size can you no longer use the stone? I sharpen 100-150 knives per week.  Thanks."
He got this answer from Jeff Farris who was the importer of Tormek into the United States and the administrator of this forum for years.
It's not very easy to use once it is below 7 inches.
You are starting out with a stone that is 8 inches in size. Which do you think will last longer, the 8 inch stone or the 10 inch stone under the same usage? EVEN if you can use the stone when it is smaller than 7 inches, which one will last longer? The decision yours.

[Tournevis]

Jeff,
My choice is not made yet. I am just on the way to get an estimated cost for T4 station.
I'll decide really when I'll have the answer from the actual owner of the Supergrind 2000. If he accept my proposal of 100 Euro, why not fully refurbish the 2000.
Wait and see. 
In the mean time, I am looking for maximum technical data about the motor which is key for me. Is there any spare part list for the engine ? (If needed ?) Where to buy ?

[Ken S]

Jeff,

You are taking Jeff Farris' statement out of context. The statement applies only to the 250mm wheel size of the T7. In 2010 I do not believe the T4 size machine with 200mm wheel diameter was even available in the US. The handbook which came with my first T7 (purchased in 2009) states that the 1200 model (predecessor of the T4) was "not available" with 115 volt 60Hz electrical power in the US. Therefore, I do not believe Jeff Farris ever sold or demonstrated the 1200. By the time the T3 and T4 models were introduced, Jeff was no longer affiliated directly with Tormek.

I have found several conflicting statements about the wear limits of the 250mm grinding wheels. For convenience, I will accept the seven inch limit. it is also listed on p.155 of the present edition of the handbook. That same page lists 150mm (six inches) as a practical wear limit for the T4 200mm grinding wheel.

One must also factor in the cost of a replacement wheel in the equation. The replacement cost of an SG-250 is presently $185 US. The replacement cost of an SG-200 is $105 US.

I do not see wheel wear and replacement costs as a decisive factor favoring either the T4 or T7.

Ken

[Ken S]

Jan,

Good luck with your offer. Dropping from 300 Euros to 100 would be a rare find. I hope you would be so fortunate, however, I would be surprised.

Regarding the motor, having to replace a Tormek motor seems a very rare occurance. Replacement motors are available, however, the cost would not be practical. Before replacing a tormek motor, I would first check with a local motor repair shop. Motors are motors.

If the motor on this unit seems iffy, I would walk away.

If you are still thinking in the cost range of a used Tormek, I still believe you would be better served with a new T4. I would not worry about the motor of a new T4 failing.

Ken

[Tournevis]

Ken,
You are so right, the old Tormek station was sold 
So,next step waiting for New T4 Quote.
A New T7 will cost 539 Euro in promotion.

[Jan]

In the mean time, I am looking for maximum technical data about the motor which is key for me.

Sheang,

Data sheets for T7 motors are not publically available  . What we know from Tormek www pages is following:
Motor: Industrial single phase, 200 W (input)
230 V, 50 Hz or 115 V, 60 Hz. Continuous duty, Maintenance free.
Silent running, 52 dB. 25,000 hour life.

If you are interested in further details, it is a single-phase AC induction motor, with run-type capacitor, which is permanently in series with the auxiliary winding. So called Permanent-Split Capacitor motor.

In the thread "T-7 overheated" http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2360.15 you can find photo of the name plate from my T7 motor (reply#22) and lot of other details.

Based on my measurements, during grinding and honing the motor load is only some 5% of full load. Do not worry about the motor, there is no known reason for it.

Jan