Reviving a T-7

[Timberwright]

Okay, Ken, so I read Jeff's blog on the Tormek website.  It would seem that the preferred stone for the chisels
we use for traditional joinery is the grey stone (SG-250).  Once again, this really has me thinking ...

Will the reduced diameter of our original grey stone (210mm) have any impact on our ability to bring our
Barr chisels back to where they should be?

By the way, the posters who assumed that timber framing chisels have to be extremely sharp are correct.
I initially learned traditional joinery from masters living in the south and, much later, picked up a few new
tricks from craftsman in the northeast -- and all of them continuously seek to keep the error in their joinery
to less than the width of a business card.  When one considers the fact that the faces of some heavy construction
timbers can be as wide as 14-inches, less than a business card's width requires a lot of delicate finishing work.

In closing, there are many occasions when a sharp framing chisel is integral to the job -- especially when
fitting joinery together in preparation for a frame raising.  As I have never mastered a sharpening technique,
we're [presently] forced to have our chisels sharpened by an outside source.  The T-7 is my hope to eventually
learn a sound sharpening method.  The best framing chisel in a joiner's box is always the sharpest one in a
joiner's box.

Thanks for your time ... 

   

 
       

[Ken S]

I think you should purchase a new, full diameter SG-250 grinding wheel. You need full confidence in your sharpening equipment, and the reduced diameter of your present wheel leaves you with doubts. Keep your present wheel as a spare. As your confidence in your equipment gradually grows to include confidence in your own sharpening skills, you will know the answer to your diameter question, based on your own experience.

Do keep us posted on your framing odyssey.

Best luck,

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

I disagree with Ken!  It is too easy for us to just throw other peoples money at this issue, rather then what it really needs, their time.

http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=178.msg519#msg519

If you find someone or someplace that will swap you the unused SB for an SG, then I would say go for it.  That said, Jeff Farris the former main moderator, still member (but doesn't post as much), said the stones minimum usable diameter is 7"  (aprox 178mm) so you have a way to go on it.
If you have the angle setting tool you should be able to get the correct angle on your chisels, so IMHO, you would just be throwing money at a new stone and that would make you feel like your just wasting more money, then learning how to use the system.  In my view, you would be better off with either a garage sale chisel, or buying another chisel instead, to LEARN and spend machine time with, rather then the ones you rely on day in and out for work.  Learn first before you learn on something your being paid to do.
This isn't something you just are automatically able to do, any more then you were able to cut with less then a business card's error, without practice.

[jeffs55]

I think you should purchase a new, full diameter SG-250 grinding wheel. You need full confidence in your sharpening equipment, and the reduced diameter of your present wheel leaves you with doubts.

Ken, here you suggest that the man buy a new stone because his is worn down to 210mm. Yet previously you have advocated for the T4 whose wheel is only 200mm. Are you suggesting now that the 200mm stone is somehow lacking?

[Timberwright]

Thanks very much for the replies, folks.  Very, very informative -- and I'm looking forward
to the day that we bring the T-7 back to productive operation.

By the way, swapping the black stone for grey seems like a very good idea, at this point.

[Herman Trivilino]

Timberwright, I also think that you shouldn't invest in a new grindstone. Your 210 mm SG or your SB will get your chisels sharp. I still believe that the SB will get them sharp enough and will do the job faster. If I were you I'd do some practicing before investing in another grindstone.

As I said before, your biggest challenge will be getting a square end. Getting them sharp will not be difficult with the Tormek. Anyone with the craftsmanship required to be a timber framer will have no problems quickly mastering the Tormek to sharpen chisels. Just make sure the grindstone is true, mount the chisel properly in the jig, and keep watching the end to make sure it's square. Apply more pressure to one side as needed to keep the end square. I doubt you'll have any problems.

[Ken S]

Jeff,

If the topic were a general post, I would agree with you about the diameter of his present SG wheel being more than adequate. As you have correctly noted, I have often advocated using the T4 with a 200mm stone.

However, I was not answering a general question. Timberwright posted about a very unusual situation. He is a very new Tormek user who wants to do very demanding sharpening with his Tormek. He has stated doubts about his reduced diameter grinding wheel being adequate for his tasks. He does not have confidence in his equipment.

I do not detect that money is an issue with him. As such, I do not think it unwise to recommend purchasing a new SG-250. A new, full diameter SG-250, specifically designed for grinding carbon steel tools such as his framing chisels is only $184 USD and would give him the confidence he needs in his equipment. He still has the learning curve ahead of him, regardless of what wheel he uses. This choice would give him a wheel he trusts. He needs that psychological edge.

I am certainly not stating that a wheel worn to 210 has no useful life. It has plenty of useful life left, and he may well use it after he gains experience with his Tormek. If he does not have that initial confidence, he will discard the Tormek and move onto something else. Ignorance would have triumphed over skill once again.

In general, I feel the T4 is up to any sharpening. In this case, due to the larger size of the framing chisels and the steeper bevels, I would favor the T7. I would not back away with a T4; I just think the T7's larger diameter wheel would be better suited for the task.

I find no "bargain" in using a wheel not designed for his tools which might someday possibly sharpen high speed steel, if he should ever happen to want high speed tools. Tormek has to the best of my knowledge never claimed that the SB wheel will even equal the SG with carbon steel, let alone do things faster. Based on his posts and blog, I get the impression that Jeff Farris was generally quite happy with the SG stone. I never recall him writing about actually using the SB stone.

Incidentally, to set the record straight, Jeff Farris stopped posting to the forum in July of 2014 under his own name, and shortly after that as moderator. He no longer has any affiliation with Tormek or this forum. No one regrets that more than me. Although I have never met his personally, I have come to like him and have very high regard for his Tormek experience. I consider us very lucky to be able to access his posts, blog, and videos and wish him only the best with his new direction.

I would add one thing to my recommendation for Timberwright: Barrtools has a very good chisel sharpening you tube on its website. i would study it several times. Make special note of his bevel angles and that he usually begins with a grinder in his shop. He builds on the hollow grind. If you are obsessed to restoring your barrtools, send one in for factory resharpening. Use it as a model. Contact the company with specific questions. Barrtools seems like a customer friendly small company. You might learn a lot from them. They are accustomed to working with framers.

And, I will stay with my recommendation of purchasing a new SG-250. Don't let others' well meant suggestions of saving you money interfere with your progress. Tool up for your job at hand. Don't worry about future "what ifs".

That's just my opinion.

Ken 

[SharpenADullWitt]

This is where Ken and I disagree, and I believe it to be because we are both playing mind reader.  (all we have is what you have posted, and it can be read both ways)
He views you as not having confidence in your equipment, I view your lack of confidence as a lack of use/experience with the equipment. (want to make sure before using)
Please consider basing your decision on whichever is more accurate!

Did Jeff sell his company, or just retire?  (his company still sells Tormek, if he didn't sell it)
I know he stopped posting as him and when Stickan took over normal duties, Jeff (pretty sure) just has posted since as Admin.  (Feb of this year)
So he is no longer a demonstrator, but still I believe has some ties.  I thought I remembered something about retirement, which I hope he is enjoying.

[Ken S]

SADW, if we did not disagree from time to time, this would be a very dull forum.

I remember reading on the forum several years ago that Jeff had sold sharptoolsusa, lock stock and barrel to Advanced Machinery. The new owners (wisely) have continued to use his videos and have left his blog on the site. His videos and blog remain one of the best sources of Tormek information, as have his forum posts (on this and other forums).

I believe Jeff's role as forum administrator ended last fall. The Admin posts since then were probably Stig or someone else from from Tormek.

Jeff is still working, happily, I believe, for another company. He started out many years ago selling Tormek and turning tools. His present position allows him to combine sharpening with a lot of turning tools.

I don't know of anyone, at least in the United States, who has Jeff's depth of Tormek knowledge. Unless one has access to one of the Tormek classes in Sweden, in my opinion, the best course of Tormek study is a diligent study of Jeff's posts and trying to locate a good class. Robin Bailey's school in Bath, England seems a good candidate. Steve Bottorff's fine class should be available on DVD shortly (please update us, Steve).

Ken

[Rob]

I'm going to jump in and make one tiny correction here Ken.

Jeff (Farris that is) did talk about the SB stone as likely to cut carbon steel chisels slightly faster than the grey stone.  I've not gone to the trouble of looking up the thread but it related to my decision to buy it when I was struggling to sharpen my planar blades.  Jeff's logic went something like this:

The SG stone is designed to cut carbon steel (soft metal relative to this discussion)
The SB stone is designed to cut HSS (hard steel relative to this discussion)
If the SB stone can cut HSS which is harder than carbon steel then it follows it will cut carbon steel more easily.

So back to your logic Ken......your recommendation is for this particular chap to buy a new 10" stone.  I have no comment to make on whether or not he should remain on the worn stone or buy a new one.  I do think if he buys a new one he is missing a trick by failing to buy the SB capability. 

Put it this way, by buying the SG stone it will do one job...carbon steel
by buying the SB it will do all the same jobs as the SG (but faster) AND other jobs if needed.  So it provides a future capability that may well prove useful whilst having no negative impact on the current need for carbon chisels.  In fact, its better (faster) at sharpening carbon chisels.

So I'm struggling to follow the logic of why the SG is a better choice??  The only caveat would be cost, I haven't looked at an A to B comparison of the 2 stones but if the SG were much cheaper then I would probably buy that one given there isn't a role for the harder qualities of the SB today.  If the price difference is small, again, logic would suggest the SB is a more versatile solution.

[Ken S]

Rob,

You have both the SG-250 and the SB-250. Have you tried the blackstone with carbon chisels?

Ken

[Rob]

I do have both stones and I never take the SB off.  It's been installed ever since I bought it (for exactly the reason I describe above).  I use it to sharpen everything including of course HSS.

[Herman Trivilino]

Rob, I believe the OP has already purchased the SB grindstone. That's the only reason I was discussing its use for his chisels.

[Timberwright]

Once again, very, very informative posts.

Yes, I (the O.P.) received our used T-7 with a few missing bits and a grey stone that was worn down to 210 mm.  Noticing the diminished diameter
of the SG-250 right away, I contacted the seller and informed him that we needed the machine for sharpening framing chisels (primarily).  In response,
the seller offered to sell me an SB-250, at a discounted price, and assured me that it would be suitable for our needs ... and that is how we came into
possession of the black stone.

At this point in time, I'm waiting for a check or two to come in.  Once we have the funding for it, I will place my order for the missing Tormek accessories,
which includes the upgraded EzyLock Main Shaft, and install and/or use them.  After that, I will install the original SG-250 stone and practice with it on
some old chisels that were taken out of service due to severe chipping.  Assuming that we eventually get positive results, I'll give the SB-250 a try.


   
   

[Ken S]

That sounds like a good plan. Best of luck and do keep us posted.

Ken