Used versus new; rusting of the shaft revisited

[Elden]

Let me start off by saying, I wish that I found this forum before buying a used Tormek.

Jeff has plainly stated (in similar words at least) that buying a used Tormek can become an expensive proposition. That can be very true.

Mine is an older square frame model with no serial number purchased through EBay. It was a good functioning unit with several jigs and has served well. It was being sold by someone for a friend as I found out later, my guess would be the widow of the owner/operator.

The bad things about it:
   It didn't have the following  necessary items.
     1) leather honing wheel
     2) trueing tool
     3) stone grader

When it arrived the wheel was not true enough for use.  Upon closer inspection, the drive shaft was bent AND the stone was rusted to the shaft but not cracked. Stop, return it! Who, ME? After all Ken says I am a "Popular Mechanics" guy! Ha!      Hindsight is always 20/20.

Is it neccessary to remove the grinding wheel when transporting?! ABSOLUTELY!

Long story made short: I cracked the stone trying to remove it even though the shaft was soaked with WD 40 several days.

After conferring with the seller, I was refunded the price for a new shaft. However, I could not conscientiously request for grinding stone replacement cost as the stone was not cracked when I received it.

I do use it with the cracked wheel. I CAN HEAR THE COMMENTS COMING FROM THAT REMARK! I use it very sporadically and yes I have to use the trueing tool almost every time I use it. That makes the stone get smalller quite quickly.

Is a used unit worth it? From my experience, no. There would sure be several questions to ask and things to look for before considering it.

[Elden]

Since that purchase I have been ornery enough to go back to EBay and ask a few Tormek sellers a few questions that are not normally shown if they have been asked.

1) Does the shaft or retaining nut show evidence of rust?
2) Does the shaft run truely?
3) Please show a picture of the unit with the grinding stone removed.

4) If purchased, please ship with the grinding stone removed and both packed well enough to withstand FedEx shipping. (Don't expect them to be gentle with anything. My son used to work for them.)

Just a few things to consider if you are considering a used Tormek.

[Herman Trivilino]

3) Please show a picture of the unit with the grinding stone removed.

Particularly good advice, Elden. I shattered my grindstone removing it from the main shaft years after I bought my Tormek new.

[Ken S]

Great comments. I am so glad you are back, Elden, and Herman is always a trooper.

Funny you brought up shipping. I will fill in a lot more details tomorrow, but suffice to say, I was talking with two reps from Affinity Tool (US Tormek importer) and a real sharpening guru at length today. I made the comment to the reps that the Tormek box itself did not seem adequate protection for shipping. He noted, quite correctly, that Affinity Tool always ships Tormeks double boxed. (They do.) Some less conscientious people shipping do not, and it causes a lot of shipping damage. Especially for the T7, that's over thirty pounds.

The worst is when a Tormek is shipped (as used ones are quite often) with the stone attached. That is a common source of bent shafts. I remember a long ago post from Jeff Farris stating he always removed the grinding wheels from the Tormeks he travelled with for shows, and that was before the EZYLock shaft!

The Tormek is a solid product, however, it does require reasonable care to operate at its best.

Tormek does not publicize it much, however, there have been several small improvements over the years.

Like Elden, I have learned from 20/20 hindsight. With Tormek, I have been more fortunate. I was at a tool show today at Hartville Hardware, my local dealer where I lived for many years. I almost purchased a tube of Tormek Honing Compound, although I have a couple spare tubes, just because it was on sale for $8.00 instead of the usual $10.00. This is the genuine new article purchased through a legitimate dealer during a tool sale. That is a much better deal than you will find on eBay. (I know; I have checked.)

I believe it is worth talking with you local dealers and inquiring when they might have tool shows or sales. These are often regular things throughout the year. A lot of happy people walked out of the store today with some nice Tormek bargains.

Yes, Elden, you and Herman are both "Popular Mechanics" guys. Wear that mantra proudly! May your tribe increase.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

Used CAN be had for a deal, but that doesn't mean they are all deals.  For starters, it isn't a tool I would look for used, online.  I would want it local, like mine was.  The gentleman I bought mine from, was the second owner, as he was given it by his friend, for selling his shop for him, when he was terminal.  After some back and forth, via email (I wasn't the only one contacting him, but I was the only local one), I thought I was given the run around and said I had his asking price in hand and he had my phone number.  He offered me both other interested parties and said one offered twice what I paid, in case I wanted to resell, because he didn't want to mess with shipping and that whole mess..
Since then, I've seen two go quick for around twice what I paid.
Can they be had used, yes.  Is it worth it?  In the end, I think your probably better off knowing someone that has one, so you can know for sure, before buying one.

[Elden]

Ken, I look forward to your story and thank you for the kind words.

I mentioned my son worked a while for FedEx. He worked in the area where the semi-trailers were loaded for cross country shipping. One thing he told me was, "Dad, I would not ship anything valuable by any of the common carriers unless it was in a wooden box or crate and well padded in that crate." He proceeded to tell why.

Picture inside of a semi-trailer. If there are dividers in various places throughout the load, it greatly facilitates the loading process. These dividers are made from boxes that are being shipped and are stacked up to form walls. Guess where the heavier boxes (did I hear someone say a Tormek T7?) go? Yes you've right, on the floor to help form the wall. After the wall is partially formed, all those smaller, light boxes (including those that say fragile) are going to be tossed over the wall into the space in front of the wall.

The wall is built taller and boxes tossed in front of it. Your Tormek is on the bottom. I wonder how many pounds are pressing down on that Tormek grinding stone that is still mounted on the axle shaft? I also wonder how much that pressure is increased when a pothole, a rough bridge approach, or rough railroad tracks are hit during transit and how many of those were hit? The rest of the load is loaded in like manner with several walls and spaces being formed and filled.

Oh, I forgot to mention that my son was injured because he didn't see a box coming down the conveyor belt. It fell on his shoulder as he was bending over to pick up another box. I don't know how high the conveyor belt was, but if that was that Tormek 2000 or something heavier, it didn't need to be very high to hurt. Oh, maybe it wasn't the Tormek. I think it fell on the concrete floor. Surely it didn't land on that grinding stone that is still on the axle shaft.

Over dramatized? No, except maybe the part about the Tormek hitting my son.

[Ken S]

Elden,

Your son's unfortunate accident reminds me of a line from Man of la Mancha. Don Quijote's squire, Sancho, always full of proverbs, says, "Whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, it is going to be bad for the pitcher".

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

I wouldn't be surprised if most of us have known at least one person who worked for the shipping companies.  I've known several, and have stories from a box of human heads falling off the conveyor belt, breaking open and one rolling out, to cocaine spilling out, to a driver whose stated goal, is to be the worst employee in the entire union, and keep his job.
I think the jigs are safe to ship, though.

[Ken S]

Maybe we should suggest (insist) that the grinding wheel be shipped separately from the Tormek itself. That would at least place the Tormek a little higher up on the wall.

Ken

[mike40]

Not to mention the videos of how some of the delivery men handle the deliveries. I've seen one where a guy just throws a boxed tv onto the front driveway. As it happened, the customer was home and caught the whole thing on video. I'm glad it isn't like that here (yet).

[Jan]

Your son's unfortunate accident reminds me of a line from Man of la Mancha. Don Quijote's squire, Sancho, always full of proverbs, says, "Whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, it is going to be bad for the pitcher".

Sensitively selected quote, Ken.   

Even the bad stones have their enemies. The Earth crust, composed of stones, is in a state of fragile equilibrium. The crustal rocks can easily rupture, more or less anyplace, and quake the Earth. The waves let us know about it. Nevertheless, most quakes are followed by periods of seismic quiet.

Elden, I wish you a long enough quiet period to recover from the challenging experiences that you have had with the used machine. 
Jan