T-7 overheated!

[Ken S]

I believe we have wandered away from the original post. I would state that there are two problems:

1) A soon to open commercial sharpening business which cannot operate without a working Tormek. I am looking at this from a business perspective, not a Tormek perspective. If a business cannot operate without any one product, the solution would seem to be purchasing a second, backup product. If your business were already running, would you close if someone stole your Tormek until you received an insurance settlement?

If you have customers waiting, you need to open. I would telephone your nearest Tormek dealer, and, assuming he had a new unit in stock, drive there and pick it up. You will be up and running today. Incidentally, this strikes me as a very logical situation for adding a T4. After a couple weeks you will again have your industrial strength T7 for the day to day grind. You will also have a solid, but lightweight backup which is ideal for more mobile situations. This is the first situation I have found where the marketing strategy of not having to pay for jigs you might not need makes sense. You already have the jigs. They work with either model.

Comparing three weeks' worth of lost revenue and disgruntled customers against the cost of a second Tormek; I think it's a no brainer.

The second problem is your Tormek itself. At this point, we have no definitive answer as to what the actual problem is. Tormek appears to be standing firmly behind its warranty. I hope the full report will eventually be posted.

As a scientist, you would be rightly skeptical if I told you I could reference a study of new Tormek T7s where there was a 100% satisfaction rate. You might ask the number of samples involved in this group. If I told you the group was all the Tormeks I have purchased (2), you might try to politely laugh. Rightly so.

In this case, we have 100% failure. We also have a sample size of one unit. I might add, with no disrespect, that in addition to a new Tormek unit, we also have a new user. Your posts seem well thought through. I have not detected any obvious "operator error". However, in good faith, we cannot make any judgements at this point.

I have read every post on this forum since August of 2009. Your post is the first I have seen describing this problem. I do believe there is a problem of some sort, however, I cannot believe that it is the result of an ill advised factory choice of motors. If I had read twenty or thirty similar complaints, I would think differently. Many of the forum posts are from members with Tormek units long out of warranty. I remember a couple posts where there was difficulty in starting the motors. (The poster had to spin the wheel to help get the motor running; a result of a worn out starter unit.) Even these posts are quite rare.

Worrying about motor specifications seems like a tempest in a teacup to me. The Tormek motors have proven themselves over the years. Continuous duty? I have one continuous duty motor in my house which really gives continuous duty. The blower motor on my furnace/ac has run continually since the furnace was replaced a year and a half ago. That is continuous duty to me.

Tyler, please keep us posted with your Tormek unit and your sharpening business.  Best of luck on this new enterprise.

Ken

[grepper]

When I was first learning, I got a box of a dozen or so knives, scissors, garden tools and anything else I could find around to put an edge on, sat down at the T7 and played with it 4 hours or so.  I probably turned it off every so often, but used it most of the time.  The biggest pain was that I thought the water trough had to be filled to the full line, so it splashed out a lot of gucky water sludge making a mess, and I had to keep refilling it.  I didn't know better, or even consider motor issues.

But even doing that I was probably being a good S6 spec user.  You know, sharpen a bit, stop and look at the blade, sharpen, stop to turn the blade, sharpen, have a sip of a beverage, slice up some paper, maybe take the stone grader to the wheel, stop to put a new blade in a jig... 

In real use, I don't see the Tormek motor under constant load like, say, a fan or generator motor. It's just not how it's used.  At least in my experience a S6 class motor is well suited for the task. 

So, duty cycle, thermal issues or whatever, as long as it works I guess I'm not really worried about the motor specs, but it is interesting nonetheless.

[mike40]

Grepper, I always fill the water to max, even though it's pretty obvious that it's not necessary, I just haven't given it a thought. Thanks for bringing that up. I will use a lot less in the future and greatly reduce the overslop and having to fill my shop water bottle as often.

[grepper]

I just fill mine enough to have even water distribution over the wheel.  It keeps things a lot less messy.  After all, Mr. Safety sez: A tidy shop is a happy shop!

[SharpenADullWitt]

1) A soon to open commercial sharpening business which cannot operate without a working Tormek. I am looking at this from a business perspective, not a Tormek perspective. If a business cannot operate without any one product, the solution would seem to be purchasing a second, backup product. If your business were already running, would you close if someone stole your Tormek until you received an insurance settlement?


The second problem is your Tormek itself. At this point, we have no definitive answer as to what the actual problem is. Tormek appears to be standing firmly behind its warranty. I hope the full report will eventually be posted.

In this case, we have 100% failure. We also have a sample size of one unit. I might add, with no disrespect, that in addition to a new Tormek unit, we also have a new user. Your posts seem well thought through. I have not detected any obvious "operator error". However, in good faith, we cannot make any judgements at this point.

I have read every post on this forum since August of 2009. Your post is the first I have seen describing this problem. I do believe there is a problem of some sort, however, I cannot believe that it is the result of an ill advised factory choice of motors. If I had read twenty or thirty similar complaints, I would think differently. Many of the forum posts are from members with Tormek units long out of warranty. I remember a couple posts where there was difficulty in starting the motors. (The poster had to spin the wheel to help get the motor running; a result of a worn out starter unit.) Even these posts are quite rare.


Tyler, please keep us posted with your Tormek unit and your sharpening business.  Best of luck on this new enterprise.

Ken

When your starting out, capital and your equipment are major expenses.  For years my friends pizza place operated with two pieces of equipment that without, wouldn't stay open.  One is not that large (but expensive), the other isn't something you can move (80 quart mixer).  When the mixer goes down, there have been places that would let them use their (I know how and have a truck so I was recruited).  The other piece, I watched for, for years, and finally found a bargain on ($2,000.), and bought and had sent there.  That saved them twice now (and I haven't paid for a pizza since). Yes I was reimbursed.   I understand why one has only one piece starting out, let alone buying two pieces, before you have gone through the learning curve, to find you prefer another method.  (not everyone prefers a Tormek, everyone is different)

That said, I couldn't find the post, but remember the teacher who couldn't get the Tormek to sharpen straight?  Tormek sent him a known good one while his went back.  Why would this be different?  Maybe problems don't happen that often (and that would be a good thing), but maybe they should consider some sort of a swap program in the future, so when things do rarely happen, their word of mouth benefit goes up.
I expect we will hear what happens here as well.  A bad motor once in a great while is a possibility, but personally, I still think the switch could have tripped, like it is supposed to after a brownout. (the newer switches)

Now motor discussion is a good thing.  After all this isn't the first time it has been talked about, just maybe it should have been a different thread:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2297.0 

Also, I keep wondering, if smaller knives might be easier on the narrower stone of the T4.

[mike40]

I had a problem getting my chisels even at first too, but soon found out I had not mounted them perfectly straight in the jig. The skew was very tiny at the jig end, but that angle was greatly magnified out at the tool edge. I now make sure that the side of my chisel shaft is registering properly against the jig edge on both the upper and lower ends.

[Jan]

Jan,
1) Maybe a good idea, however, I don't think many of us thinks about it, if you are not an electrician. So personally, I don´t find it very important. We do give the information that is acquired from us. I will take it up for discussion though.

2) We have been using S6-40% motors since we started using motors in the early 80´s, and still are, the first Tormek models were driven by a drill back when we started in 1973. But I learned today that the S6-60% is a motor we recently started to use, along with S6-40% .

Stig

Stig, thank you for your prompt response and explanations. 
If you think there is no general interest in the motor data sheet, please send it to my email address jan.svancara.cz@gmail.com. Thank you.
Jan

[Ken S]

SADW, I started the other "motor post". There was no problem motor involved. I was just reacting to an apparently correct motor statistic in an online video review of the T4. The review contained other errors, so I questioned the 10,000 and 25,000 hour statistics. Stig confirmed them for me. Most of us will never even approach 10,000 hours running a Tormek, let alone 25,000.

I understand a new business not having an overabundance of capital. However, if $400, the cost of a T4 back up unit, would cause the business to fail, the business has serious undercapitalization problems. My point was that having a backup for a piece of equipment, the lack of which would cause the business not to open, is a very good way to reduce risk.

Ken

[Jan]

Worrying about motor specifications seems like a tempest in a teacup to me. The Tormek motors have proven themselves over the years.

Ken, I understand your point. 

The motor duty issue discussed here, can be considered from ethical, technical and economical points of view.
1)   Ethical aspect. It is not fair when on T7 front label we can read "Continuous duty S1" and in fact the motor duty is S6-60%. This should be corrected. May be it is a non-intentional omission.

2)   Technical aspect. Operating motors in compliance with specifications is common good practice. It is beneficial for both, the manufacturer and the user, because the average life expectancy of the motor is larger.

3)   Economical aspect. I do not know what is the price difference between a motor of the duty type S1  and a motor duty type S6-60% with the same input power. The S1 motor is usually a little bit bigger to enable continuous heat dissipation. I do not think the price is significantly different.

Regards
Jan

[Fineline]

Hi Jan,
I agree with you.
If Tormek says S1 motor then the right thing to do is to have a S1 motor. However, I couldn't find where did Tormek says S1 motor. Could you indicate where it says S1 motor?
By the way, I search the web and ATB motor is based in Austria and that is for the S4.
Could you share the data sheet once you have it.
Thanks.

[Ken S]

I think we need to step back and look at the big picture. I don't have a strong opinion either way on the motor situation. All I will say is that my Tormeks have worked flawlessly.

As has been stated before, we are guests on this forum. The Tormek Company in Sweden pays the freight for this website. It costs us nothing, and it is ad free, something refreshingly rare.

I have seen and made posts which have been critical of Tormek. This motor issue could be embarrassing and possibly costly for Tormek. The company management could very easily pull the forum.

I have probably gained as much as anyone from this forum. It has been an excellent source of knowledge for me. The same opportunity is available to any member, free of charge. Even the members who choose to only read and not post can learn much. I would hate to see this wonderful opportunity be jeopardized by very critical posts which, in reality, will not accomplish anything of any real value.

I suggest we move on and do not post any more on this issue.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

Ken, Seriously? I think by your post, we need a head in the sand icon.
Your post makes me think that a company must run and  hide and try to cover things up, rather then step up and say, "whoops, we didn't realize, and we screwed up".

Fineline you asked and I looked at mine today, my 2000 says S1 on the label on the top, and on the motor it says S6.  I think mine is an early tilt top verses the square frame, so I would expect that is a mistake that was never noticed.
I don't doubt that this will be brought up over there and  corrected.
Don't you long term posters, think that Tormek gains from this feedback, as well as us posters?

[Fineline]

Thanks Rob.

I don't mean to press on this issue but I think some messages, including mine, could have been read as an 'attack' on Tormek.
That isn't the intent and I am glad I learn some new things about S1-S6 motors.
OTOH, this exchange hopefully gives Tormek some insights to how or what the user thinks. This kind of information is 'priceless' taken in the right context, be it correcting a printing error or for product improvement.
By the way, does anybody knows what kind of motor is used in the T4? Just kidding .... it's a Friday.

[Stickan]

Hi,
I must say we have some dedicated members on this forum :-)

If we go to the facts, one machine has a problem, and started this tread as "T-7 overheated" but we still don´t know if that's the problem as we have not got the motor to Sweden yet.
We are as interested as you because this is a very unusual situation , in fact, for my 5 years at Tormek, this is the first motor that is reported as a overheating.

It does say S1 on the machine-sign and have done so for many years, I will address this to the technicians.
We will not share any motor data sheet on this forum or to send it to someone. I don´t think it´s normal for many companies to share every detail.
We regularly test our motors very hard, continuous full power for up to 8 hours during several days, without any problem.

When we have tested the actual motor, I will report what we found was the cause of it. This will take 2-3 weeks.

If anyone has any further questions or worries, please send them to support@tormek.se and they will be answered from us within 24H weekdays.

[Jan]

I think we need to step back and look at the big picture. I don't have a strong opinion either way on the motor situation. All I will say is that my Tormeks have worked flawlessly.

As has been stated before, we are guests on this forum. The Tormek Company in Sweden pays the freight for this website. It costs us nothing, and it is ad free, something refreshingly rare.

I have seen and made posts which have been critical of Tormek. This motor issue could be embarrassing and possibly costly for Tormek. The company management could very easily pull the forum.

I have probably gained as much as anyone from this forum. It has been an excellent source of knowledge for me. The same opportunity is available to any member, free of charge. Even the members who choose to only read and not post can learn much. I would hate to see this wonderful opportunity be jeopardized by very critical posts which, in reality, will not accomplish anything of any real value.

I suggest we move on and do not post any more on this issue.

Ken

Ken, I understand your point. 

Please do not be afraid of Tormek. Nobody here will harm Tormek. By admitting this discussion on its own forum, Tormek will acquire valuable feedback which is easy convertible in future products improvements.

It may sound old fashioned, but nowadays moral concepts, I have mentioned, play an important role in business. Companies adopt ethical codes as pragmatic necessities for successful running an organization.  The ethical code includes details of how the company is going to implement its mission and visions. Code of ethics is also good guidance to staff how to achieve the goals.

So once again Ken, do not be worried about Tormek. It is win-win situation for Tormek and the forum. Both sides may benefit from the discussion at this forum. 

Regards
Jan