A Few Questions from a Potential T7 Buyer

[Crosscut]

I'm new to this forum and considering the purchase of a T7.  I would be primarily sharpening woodworking hand tools, i.e. plane irons, chisels, etc.  I've been using the worksharp for quite sometime and while reasonably satisfied, I think Tormek is a better solution.

Now for the questions:
Are most of the Tormek users flatening the backs utilizing the side of the stone?  Is this effective and reliable?  I realize getting the back flat and polished is not done frequently but often enough with the acquisition of "new" old tools to cause my inquiry.

What is the general speed of establishing a bevel?  I've seen posts on various websites claiming that the Tormek system is extremely slow and yet I've seen videos that seem to get the initial set of a bevel in 5 to 8 minutes of time on the grinding wheel.  I'd like some input from experienced users.

This is an interesting forum and I'm looking forward to participating here.

Tom

[Herman Trivilino]

I'm new to this forum and considering the purchase of a T7. 

Hi Tom.  Welcome to the forum.  Crosscut, that's a nifty username!

Are most of the Tormek users flatening the backs utilizing the side of the stone?  Is this effective and reliable?  I realize getting the back flat and polished is not done frequently but often enough with the acquisition of "new" old tools to cause my inquiry.

I flatten the backs of wood chisels with the side of the Tormek grindstone, as do many others.  There was a discussion in this forum some time back about getting better results doing it by hand, but I can't find it now.  Keep in mind that they've probably spent more on any one of their chisels than I have on all of mine.  In fact, I can recall buying only one, it was a long time ago when I worked as a house builder, and I still have it.  It was never as sharp as it is now, thanks to the Tormek.  All the rest of the chisels in my "collection" are ones that I found or inherited.

Flattening the back is a procedure that's done one time in the life of the tool.  I have seen new chisels that needed it done, some rather badly. 

What is the general speed of establishing a bevel?  I've seen posts on various websites claiming that the Tormek system is extremely slow and yet I've seen videos that seem to get the initial set of a bevel in 5 to 8 minutes of time on the grinding wheel.  I'd like some input from experienced users.

Five to eight minutes is a long time to spend on a chisel.  Maybe a badly damaged chisel that needed quite a bit of work, or if you've decided to grind a new bevel angle that's smaller than the previous one.  Once the chisel has been sharpened properly, it takes only a minute or two of grinding to get it sharp again.

I know your primary concern is sharpening chisels and plane irons, and the only jig you'd need for that is the SE-76, which comes with the Tormek.  But I imagine you'd also like to keep your knives and scissors sharp, too, so you may want to get the jigs for those as well.

Some of the other regulars will no doubt chime in with their responses, too.  Most of them have a lot more experience than I do with chisels and plane irons.  My woodworking tools of choice are the hammer and saw.   
 

[Rob]

the only "yes and" I would add to Herman's is the flattening of the back.  I've found that to flatten the entire back (on the side of the wheel) is a bit of a chore in time terms so I only flatten the 1/4" directly at the tip ie the bit that contributes to the edge.  This goes much faster and you'd be surprised how long it will be before you next need to do it (like never in most cases).

If bevels are badly dinged you will need to regrind the whole bevel so it could take more time than you might think.

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, crosscut.

I have had mixed results flattening the backs of chisels with the side of the wheel.  I have a nice old 3/8" Buck chisel which had a belly (the worst kind of unflat condition, the middle stuck out like a belly).  The side of the wheel removed the belly in about the same amount of time using a waterstone would have required, but with much less wear and tear on my hands.

I bought a footswitch which worked with my first Tormek.  That helped with "take off and landing" to insure the process was flat.  Unfortunately, that Tormek was stolen.  My replacement unit has the updated safety switch.  I haven't actually tried using the foot switch with it, but I don't think it will work.

Flattening a back with a Tormek requires some skill.  It is easy to round an edge.

The best way to flatten a back is by buying a premium chisel, like a Lie-Nielsen or Veritas.  For the real world most of us inhabit, I have found using a waterstone a workable, but smewhat slow option.  (1000 grit).  The next time I flatten a chisel, I will use some 1000 grit diamond paper (purchased from Lee Valley) or my 220 grit Norton waterstone.  According to the sales propaganda, the 1000 grit diamond paper cuts more quickly than a 1000 grit waterstone.  I suspect the 220 grit is too coarse.  I don't have an 800 or 600 grit stone. make sure the stone is dead flat.

I recently acquired some diamond paste (to try sharpening my serrated bread knife).  That might be an option for flattening chisels.

I prefer to flatten the whole length of the back. If you are lucky enough to have a concave chisel (with a "negative belly") or one which is flat, you will save much work.  I'm not too picky about polish far from the edge.

Plane irons don't need the whole back flattened.  Do a google on "David Charlesworth Ruler Trick".  It will save you much time with plane irons.

For removing nicks, make your life easier by freshly dressing your wheel with the diamond dresser.  That will give you the coarsest grit.  After a while, refresh the wheel with the stone grader on coarse.

Check your work ofter with a square, and don't forget the initial Shaprie marker.

Learn well and keep us posted.  Best of luck.

Ken

[Crosscut]

I appreciate the feedback from everyone.  I've had a worksharp for a number of years and developed reasonably good techniques with it.  When flattening a back whether chisel or plane iron, the challenge is how quickly the worksharp comes up to speed.  A footswitch gave me increased control but it's fairly easy to dub (round over) the edge by rocking the iron while pressed to the spinning wheel.  I suspect that the same care is needed when using the side of the Tormek stone in that keeping the tool pressed flat and under control is essential.  I also suspect that the slower speed of the Tormek along with the water bath to keep the iron cool is also an advantage.  The worksharp is adequate but generates considerable heat and produces much metal dust that's  flung everywhere.  I'm looking to improve my sharpening processes hence the interest in the Tormek.

The Tormek produces a hollow grind.  There are some woodworkers that see a hollow grind as the work of the devil and something to be avoided.  While I have flat ground for quite sometime, I don't share the disdain for a hollow grind process.  In fact, it removes less material and would seem to eliminate the need for a micro bevel because of the reduced material removed.  I have done some free hand honing with a hollow grind configuration and for me, it seemed easier to stay true to the bevel when free handing because of the platform created by the hollow grind.

Ken, you make a great point about using a square and marker to track and check the squareness of the grind.  I have used the same approach and it really helps.  The problem with my current configuration is the difficulty in correcting when the sharpening process starts going out of square.  What technique do you use on the Tormek to adjust the squareness of your grinding?

Thanks again to all for the information.

Tom

[Herman Trivilino]

Tom, getting a square end on a chisel is an issue, but it can be resolved.  Usually it's a matter of applying extra force on the side that needs it.  This Tormek publication explains the causes of the problem:

http://tormek.com/media/100841/se76_factors_en.pdf

[Ken S]

Good reference, Herman.

Tom, using the Sharpie and square reminds me of driving from one place to another.  If you make a wrong turn, how far do you want to drive before getting back on track?  The Sharpie and square help keep us on track.

Rob makes an interesting point about only flattening the last quarter inch of the blade.  My most recent uses of chisels were excavating a hole to properly fit the opening to allow a bathroom door to close.  The hole was misdrilled when the house was built in 1991.  The carpenter apparently never bothered to test close the door.  Even more surprising is that the former occupant, also the builder and the carpenter's boss, was apparently not bothered by it.  ( real quality).  The second use was widening a deadbolt hole in the deteriorated garden shed to get a couple more years out of it.

Neither of these applications required a precision prepared chisel.  In fact, it also wouldn't matter whether or not the edge was square.  I suspect most of our chisels get this kind of job than precision cut delicate dovetails or paring.

I think a wiser use of time would be to do a first-rate job on the precision tools and just enough on the workaday tools.

Tom, when you are out of square, is the outage consistently on one side (inner or outer referencing the motor)?

Have you checked your square?

Jeff and others have talked about subtly varying finger pressure to true up an edge.  I think that's the key.

I remember seeing an exhibit in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan.  In the early nineteenth century a man secured a contract to make a large number of clocks.  I believe the time period was three years.  He spent the first two perfecting the manufacturing process.  Only during the third year did he actually build his clocks.  (I'm paraphrasing. I saw this almost twenty years ago.)  I believe the quickest way to sharpen a group of chisels is to take the time to really get the first one right and understand the process.

I think the square should be sized (or adjusted as with a Starrett square) so that the chisel may be checked without removing it from the support bar.  Really good light is critical.  Really good light is critical. (Repetition is intentional.)

I like to work with a fairly short blade projection.

"Hollow grinding" is one thing with a worn wheel which started out at six inches in diameter.  It's quite another with a ten inch wheel.  This issue has come up before on the forum.  The hollow grind of a Tormek wheel reminds me of the flatness of a Leitz (Leica) camera filter.  It's not really flat, but ground to something like a meter or rise in forty five kilometers.  To the rest of the world, that's "flat".

How flat and how square do we need"  It depends........

Keep posting, Tom.

Ken

[Ken S]

ps

What convinced me to purchase a Tormek was the way my hands hurt after preparing some chisels for a hand dovetail cutting class. (I was using waterstones.)

I think the key to keeping bevel restoration time down is to sharpen early and often.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

Just the other day I noticed that the paring knife in a kitchen drawer was dull.  Just the opportunity to try out the new bench I'd made for the Tormek, which is at a much reduced and now correct height.  One thing I noticed right off was the grindstone needed truing.

The surface of a freshly-trued grindstone is too rough to sharpen a paring knife, so I went looking for an old chisel in need of shaping and found a crappy one in a drawer.  The back needed flattening but it was so twisted that I did as Rob describes and flattened only the first inch or two near the end.  Of course, if you mount a twisted chisel in the jig it's gonna be hard to get a square end, but I managed to get it close enough for the kind of work Ken talked about.
 

[Herman Trivilino]

Tom, when you are out of square, is the outage consistently on one side (inner or outer referencing the motor)?

Tom hasn't bought his Tormek yet!   

I remember seeing an exhibit in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan.  In the early nineteenth century a man secured a contract to make a large number of clocks.  I believe the time period was three years.  He spent the first two perfecting the manufacturing process.  Only during the third year did he actually build his clocks.

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe."  (Abraham Lincoln, 1809-65)