I'm really not getting the hang of honing

[Ken S]

Mike,

I have one of the Veritas plough planes (my only L-N or Veritas plane).  What a well designed and manufactured tool!  The "compleat" collector in me made me purchase all the extra blades, inch and metric.  I have had only superb service from Lee Valley (Veritas).

I suspect Lee Valley is much better capitalized than L-N.  I am very glad we have both.

Getting back to honing on the leather wheel:  I think there are two subsets of things which can't be done on a Tormek.  The first is "Tools the tormek Can't Sharpen", tools well beyond the purpose of the tool.  An example of this would be circular or bandsaw blades.  The second (and larger catagory) would be "Tools I Don't have the Skill to Sharpen on the Tormek".  (through no fault of the Tormek)  This group is made up of those tools Jeff can sharpen through years of experience.  I put honing in that group.  I hope to lessen the size of that group.

Ken

[nobby1967]

Very good subject and information in this post.
Just thought I mention this you probably know this anyway the honing paste is 6,000 grit so in my eyes the scratch pattern would be deeper than 8,000 stone.

[mike40]

I think we can sometimes can be a little too obsessive when it comes to getting a sharp edge. That superfine edge, ( I am talking the ultimate edge here), will not last more than a few short minutes under

working conditions anyway and then you are left with the less sharp edge you would have achieved without all that extra work. I am not saying one should not strive for the ultimate edge if that is what it takes

to make him happy, but I don't believe we actually need it for woodworking most of the time. I think from a woodworking perspective it is most practical to use enough time to get an edge suitable for the

work at hand. Sometimes that might require time to get that ultimate edge. Just my personal opinion. I know how strongly folks feel about what they consider an acceptable edge and I respect that.

[Herman Trivilino]

I've found that it's all about matching the edge angle to the task.  A good general angle is about 25^o.  But if you work it too hard it'll quickly dull or chip.  30^o is more suitable for hammering, whereas 20^o is good for hand paring.

Of course, adjustments also have to made for the hardness of the wood.

[Rob]

I agree

[Ken S]

Mike,

I finally have the space to unpack some of the hand tools I have inherited or accumulated over the years.  Many of these tools were last sharpened by previous owners.  In general they are very sharp.  Some of the bevels show multiple angles from hand sharpening.  I doubt the piece of wood being planed, chiseled or shaved would know the difference between a skillfully hand sharpened tool or a Tormek sharpened tool.  An obsessive/compulsive edge might not stand out either, especially after the first few cuts.

I wonder how often the great cabinetmakers of the past would continue using a chisel when they first noticed it was not cutting as well as when freshly sharpened?  (Especially when on deadline or at the end of the day....)  I am guilty of this, also.

Ken

[Mike Fairleigh]

Ken, in many cases I suspect they used it until it just couldn't be used anymore, and then they would give it to the apprentice, or the new kid on the crew (whichever scenario and/or time period applied) and just expect it to be handed back to them ready to go.

[Herman Trivilino]

Ken, I've found that many of these old tools that have been hand-sharpened over a period of many years have a bevel that's too blunt.  Sharpening with the Tormek will get them back to their most effective edge angle.  A lot of steel will have to be removed to do that and the Tormek, as you know, is up to the task.  Hand sharpening would take a lot more time and effort.

[Herman Trivilino]

Ken, in many cases I suspect they used it until it just couldn't be used anymore, and then they would give it to the apprentice, or the new kid on the crew (whichever scenario and/or time period applied) and just expect it to be handed back to them ready to go.

In my experience those dull chisels would be used in places where it's possible that nails could be encountered.  No one minds chipping a dull chisel, but try hitting a nail with the new boss's sharp chisel and you'll be sent to tote lumber.

I really never knew what it was like to use a sharp chisel until I had a Tormek.  My father never maintained his very well, and neither did I.  When a sharp chisel was needed a new one was bought.  Most carpenters in the house-building trades don't even carry a chisel, but many do.

A sharp chisel can be a hazard on the job site.  How would you like to be looking upward at a newbie on the scaffold when his razor-sharp chisel falls out of his nail bag?

[Ken S]

Good points, Herman.

I was surprised several years ago.  I was chatting with several carpenters I know.  The lead carpenter would spend some time occasionally sharpening several chisels (I think very occasionally).  One of the other carpenters seemed to "sharpen" his chisel be buying a new one which was already "sharp".

I don't mean to be an arm chair critic.  It's easy to lean that way when one isn't doing carpentry for a living.  These guys did skillful and careful work as well as being amiable.

Some of my telephone tools were in rough shape, so I'm in no position to throw stones.

It is a joy to use a truly sharp tool.

Ken

[MakerUnknown]

I spent twelve years in the house construction business as a carpenter...in Montana, Colorado and British Columbia.  I always carried a chisel and it was always sharp.  Got a job in British Columbia working with a bunch a Danes and every time we transitioned  from the rough construction to the inside finish work, we would spend a half a day sharpening things.  We sharpened handsaws, plane irons, chisels and skilsaw blades all on the job site.
But maybe I/we were an anomaly in that as I knew quite a few carpenters that had no idea how to sharpen anything...or even what sharp meant.

[RobinW]

I have just sharpened six chisels for someone - that was after he'd cleaned the paint and other detritus off first!

I flattened the backs initially on the side of the Tormek wheel, then with 800 grit waterstone; then with 4000 grit waterstone; and then honed up (polished might be a better description) on the Tormek leather wheel. Result was mirror like surfaces.

I then ground the primary bevel at 30 degrees on the Tormek wheel; regraded the surface of the wheel to fine and went over primary bevel again. Then I honed this primary bevel on the leather wheel (all nice and shiny and very smooth)

I then ground the secondary bevel on the fine graded wheel, and then honed up on the leather wheel.

The real effort was getting the backs flat. The rest didn't take too long. All grinding and honing was using the SE76. The only time I free-handed anything was getting the backs flat.

However I did a few quick tests on the way - difficult to measure so it comes to subjective feel - and I still think that using the leather honing wheel is taking the edge off the secondary bevel a bit. They are still very sharp, but I still get the impression that if I had done the secondary bevel using lighter and lighter strokes on the fine graded wheel I would have a sharper edge.

[Rob]

Robin...did you read that article that was posted yesterday from that Canadian guy?  Let me see if I can hunt it down...it had some interesting things to say about using a soft strop.  I'll post back in a tick

[Rob]

Here it is.

He concludes that stropping BOTH buggers up the angle profile you had originally intended when setting the jig AND degrades the integrity of the steel at the very tip by affecting it's structure.

I have to be honest, I've always had my doubts about the honing process.  Obviously you improve the performance by removing the burr...but anything beyond that???

I have to say that without electron microscopy etc I have no opinion on the changing of the physical nature of the steel...he quotes metallurgists saying this is well known in the engineering business, but the idea that honing changes the angle at the tip of the edge makes logical sense to me.  It is after all abrading the metal and typically it is used freehand ie without the exact same angle as that which the jig helped you achieve when sharpening. (A case for bothering to rejig for honing in fact)

My personal experience is that, whilst you certainly get a mirror finish, I can't hand on heart say the edge is sharper.  I've done loads of different tests to try and get this.  I also absolutely 100% reject any technique errors on my part with respect to honing...I am now super duper careful not to roll the edge...I even use magnifying glasses to really see close up how the edge is with respect to the wheel.  I've watched Jeff's videos many times and I can replicate that procedure with certainty.

My take is burr off is obviously a good thing......that great piece of junk on the end is no good to anyone. But any more than that is putting your carefully jigged edge at risk.  Having said that, I can definitely bring a little bit more performance to a chisel edge that's just gone off the boil with a strop but no sharpen???  Go figure.  It doesn't seem to make logical sense.

[Jeff Farris]

I'm not going to comment on any other author's methods or writings. As far as using a Tormek goes, if you take the edge off with the honing wheel, you did something wrong. It's easy to do, but it's also easy to correct. You're bringing the angle too high. The solution is to not bring the angle too high. 

Think about it this way. there's no penalty whatsoever for having the angle too flat, so always err in that direction.  Start flat and carefully bring the angle up until the edge just gets to the leather. Kiss the edge, don't maul it.