What kind of kitchen knives should I buy?

[Justin]

Thanks for that Tom!
I'm curious to know, there are other machines that appear to work on a very similar jig/grinding principle. So, is it the 101 training that really sets this system apart, or just a good machine with good back-up?

[Black Mamba]

I'm continually on the prowl for any device, process, etc., etc., that will enhance my effectiveness at my trade. I have no loyalty to any company, product, or individual that would prohibit me from incorporating changes to my system and hardware if I determined such changes to be beneficial.

I have yet to find any machine on the market that approaches the excellence in design, construction, and performance of the one that I use. Therefore, I still consider it to be the superior choice for my business.

The finest equipment in the world is darn near useless if you don't know what to do with it. I applaud Rapid Edge for their stance: Buy here - Train here. Incidentally, the guy who trains you is the same guy who designed the equipment and who spent years in the field as a practicing sharpener himself. I've never met anyone else who has the breadth of knowledge that he has.

I hope, Justin, that I've answered your questions. The equation is simple.....Best equipment, best training, best support = best chance to succeed.

Tom

[Justin]

Indeed you did answer my queries. What i am most impressed by is the your pursuit of excellence!!

[Ken S]

Back to the original question:  Ron, how have the Forschner knives worked for your wife?

By the way, one of the things which sold me on the Tormek was an article in Fine Woodworking several years ago featuring several tools which were kinder on the hands.  While reading the article I had fresh (painful for my hands) memories of flattening the backs of several chisels for a dovetail class. I have since learned some better ways to flatten chisel backs, however, the Tormek certainly makes life easier on the hands and done away with the "overheating tool blues".

I hope you and your wife are enjoying your new knives. 

Ken

[rsaygv]

I have been waiting to reply until she had a chance to work the knives into her daily routine. Since these knives weren't as expensive as the one's I was initially looking at, I also bought her a maple end-grain cutting block.

Her first comment was about how pretty the rosewood handles were. The second thing she commented about was how good they felt in her hand just holding them. We had quite a crowd over on New Years, and after she prepared that meal, she said that her hand didn't hurt as much as usual after cutting a lot of food. I haven't sharpened the knives yet, so I can't comment on that, but the factory edges were quite good and they have maintained their edges well. The cutting board is also key. The thickness of it raises the working surface to a better height for her.

I think I scored more "husband points" with this gift, than with my last 5 Christmas gifts combined.

I certainly appreciate the advice I received here. Without it, I would have spent a lot more than necessary and ended up with knives that didn't work as well for my wife's personal situation.

[Ken S]

Well done, Ron.

You and your wife have discovered the joy of well designed tools. 

I love wooden cutting boards.  Having the board the right height makes an incredible difference in comfort.  It's worth taking the time to get the height right.

I happen to do most of the chopping in our kitchen.  I have noticed that my knives left the factory with sharp edges on the back side (precisely square, with sharp and uncomfortable corners).  If you or your wife tend to cut with a hand on top of the blade rather than on the handle (as I do), you might find your knives can be more comfortable by removing the sharp square edge along the back of the knife.  This could be done with the Tormek or with a diamond paddle. These were suggested by another poster on this forum, and work well. (Diamond paddles are not expensive; around twenty some dollars for a set of three.)  They are useful for many things.

My wife and I find it enjoyable to cook together.  I do most of the chopping and she does the stove work.

I hope you and your wife have many happy years enjoying the new knives, and good eating, too.

Ken

[Rob]

I love wooden cutting boards.  Having the board the right height makes an incredible difference in comfort.  It's worth taking the time to get the height right.


Ah, chopping boards....at the (considerable) risk of meandering off topic again, I absolutely love wooden chopping boards too :-). In fact, my father was a teacher many years ago and he once "recycled" a science bench from a school and made our family kitchen table from which we scoffed meals for a good 20 years. That world has now given way to my own family and I took the liberty of recycling Dads table (respectfully disposing of the yellow Formica covering!!!) into the biggest bread board you've ever seen. It is a custom fit on my breakfast bar, perfectly nestling between hob top and the end of the bar. I now have a 3'x2' veritable chopping "airstrip" of sumptuous beech which has a family provenance dating back nearly 40 years.  There's chopping boards and CHOPPING boards :-)

I'll shut up now

[tb444]

Any steps up from there and i'd worry putting them to the tormek, (no disrepect to the tormek, just greater respect to the knife).

Are you saying you would only use traditional water stones on more expensive knives? What is it that the Tormek would or wouldn't do to the knives?

When sharpening higher end knives, as well as maintaining the edge geometry, there is also the overall blade geometry to maintain by thinning behind the edge. doing this on a tormek would be precarious on a tormek due to the very low angles involved and the desire to maintain a convex geometry to the blade.

The speed that the tormek will abrade a very thin edge makes any errors quickly magnified, and also will remove steel at a rate more suited to putting a fresh edge on than regular touch ups. If you have a knife that cost a lot of money due to the steel, heat treat, grind geometry, you'll want to keep it sharp through regular maintenance, without reducing it's lifespan through excessive wear.

The ability to match the edge geometry the whole length of the blade, whilst being constrained by a jig is likely to result in uneven wear, resulting in subtle, but if compounded noticable changes in the knife profile. i would agree to an extent that practice will reduce this, but i have seen a lot of funky tips and flattened transitions from tormek grinding.

you'll end up with a subtle concave grind that doesn't do much to contribute to edge stability at angles of around 10 degree per side, which is part of the advantage of higher grade knives because they will support extreme geometries.

There is also the concept of asymetric grinds on edges, that would necessitate resetting the knife in the tormek, adding to the set up time. The speed of freehanding with splash and go benchstones also rivals that of the tormek if you only have 1 or 2 to do, as by the time i've set it up, saturated the stone and jigged the blade i could have pretty much finished a knife. but that is an aside.

When Herman commented that a well done Tormek edge will be better than a hand ground edge i would strongly dispute this. I've spen a lot of time with the tormek trying to get similar edges to those i can get freehand, and done some quite exhaustive cutting tests. I do want the best functioning edge on my knives, if i've spent $1000 for a knife i want to get that every bit of performance out of it, and freehand edges win every time. The difference is less apparent at the lower end of cutlery, but once you get into beter blade steels with top notch heat treats it does make a difference.


To the poster who commented on Global knives not being sharpened by a knife steel that's due to the hardness of the steel. Your global knife will be at 58 Rockwell C, which will be very close to that of your steel and so there is no noticable abrasion if it is a cut steel. If you have a smooth steel this works by realigning a folded edge, but the global edge wont tend to fold at the standard geometries (and will quickly fracture if you attempt to realign it with a steel). So is mostly a waste of time. That is why Global sell ceramic and diamond steels, as these are abrasive and act to remove steel from the edge.

Whilst global knives are better than a lot of the junk out there, the steel in them is still very run of the mill and soft in comparison to higher end knives.

[Herman Trivilino]

When Herman commented that a well done Tormek edge will be better than a hand ground edge i would strongly dispute this. I've spen a lot of time with the tormek trying to get similar edges to those i can get freehand, and done some quite exhaustive cutting tests. I do want the best functioning edge on my knives, if i've spent $1000 for a knife i want to get that every bit of performance out of it, and freehand edges win every time. The difference is less apparent at the lower end of cutlery, but once you get into beter blade steels with top notch heat treats it does make a difference.

My experience is with far less expensive knives than yours, and also with far less sophisticated sharpening.  The knives I've seen that have been hand sharpened for many years have taken a beating, and the only way I know to fix them is with my Tormek.  I have to confess that I've never had the patience to become accomplished at hand sharpening, and so my results have been lousy.  I did know a wood carver at one time who could put a superb edge on a knife using just a stone and a leather belt. He spent many hours perfecting his craft.

I agree with you about the knives that require thinning. Too much sharpening on a Tormek, particularly by a newbie who tends to get carried away, will require them to be thinned too often.  I tend to buy knives now that, due to their geometry, never need thinning.  That is, the sides of the knife blade are planar across their entire surface, except for the grinding edge.

I do the same when I buy new tools, too.  I always think about how I'll be able to sharpen them on my Tormek, and this often affects the style and brand of tool that I buy.  For example, I buy lawn mowers with blades that have simple geometries.

We have a lot of craftsmen on this forum who are accomplished with the use and care of knives. Let's not forget that knife-sharpening is only part of what the Tormek was designed to do. To me it's primarily a device for keeping tools sharp.

I suppose that the simplest way to explain it is this. Since acquiring my Tormek almost ten years ago the tools in my garage, the knives in my kitchen, and the scissors throughout the household are a lot sharper than they were before.  I never really used to use planes and chisels properly before I had my Tormek because whenever I did use them they were dull.  The only time I used a sharp chisel was when it was new. Now when I buy a new chisel it's the dullest tool I own. I flatten its back and sharpen and polish the bevel before I ever use it.

[Rob]

Lets just get a little perspective here. All my little ironic/sarcastic/satirical/lampooning comment (however one chooses to define it) was aiming to do was bring a little much needed levity to a topic that IMO folks are at risk of over analysing.

I'm with Jeff and Herman on this....the fact is the Tormek works to a standard the vast majority of people are not just satisfied but absolutely delighted with.  After a while, the somewhat dogmatic arguments to the contrary suggest the poster may have a different agenda ( like they work for a competitor).

To reiterate Jeff's experience, he's sharpened thousands of people's knives at exhibitions etc where their agenda was to deliberately trip him up....and they were converts to the Tormek.  It works.  End of.

[Jeff Farris]

Guys, let's keep it civil.  I've deleted a few posts, hopefully without actually removing anyone's opinion, but getting rid of some of the unnecessary bickering. I don't want to delete this thread, as it has some good information in it.

I haven't sharpened a lot of thousand dollar knives, I will admit. I have sharpened thousands of hundred dollar knives, and with every conceivable method available to me, I would continue to choose the Tormek.

tb444, sounds like you need to become better acquainted with your stone grader or get an SJ-250 Japanese waterstone. If you (or those you've observed) are removing material at that fast a pace, the stone is not graded properly. If you give the SJ-250 a try, I think you'll find the speed well worthwhile compared to water splashed bench stones, whether jigged or freehand.

[Ken S]

Ron, I had a thought for you I have been holding back until you and your wife have some experience with your new knives.  I'm certainly no trained chef, however, I find myself using my chef's knife most of the time.  I like the weight of the knife.  I think the heft of the knife makes many cutting operations easier.  My thought would be to consider purchasing just an extra forged chef's knife.  You and your wife might like the extra weight or you might not.  Worst case scenario is you end up with two chef's knives, which might be useful when cooking a large meal.

I second Jeff's wise thought requesting you post after using your knives for a while with your thoughts.

Ken

[Brad I]

For what it's worth, I offered to sharpen a friend's old Henckel chef's knife one Saturday.  Admittedly, it had been run through the dishwasher for years prior.   After an hour and a half on the Tormek it still wasn't worth a d@mn.  Most confounded sharpening session ever. 

Finally, I got it to where you could shave paper with it - i.e. where you can shave fine stands off the edge of a sheet of paper.  (That is my standard)

While demoing the sharpness to him it shaved a few strands, then the paper started ripping.  It had actually dulled in front of our eyes!  He took it and threw it right in the trash. 

I am not saying the Henckel is bad quality or anything, but when they say to keep the knife out of the dishwasher, they mean it!  I have a set of Wustof knifes I'd consider similar quality 10 years older than his that still perform like new after sharpening.  But they have never been in the dishwasher 

[Rhino]

Anyone with experience with the Sabatier high carbon knives?  The rusting kind.  My mom used high carbon knives when I grew up and they were easy to sharpen - we had a cheapo 2 sided stone from the store.  Everybody gave it a few rubs if they think the knife was dull, and it worked.  I am thinking of going back to them. 

Does anyone have a brand to recommend?

On the other hand, I used my Gransfor axe on lobsters and I saw it rust before my eyes.  I cut up the lobsters, washed, and recoated the axe with oil.  It took all of 15 minutes or less.  The axe has discoloration already.  So this experience is holding me back.

[Herman Trivilino]

Victorinox has been recommended before on this forum.

I have one.  It's a few months old and I haven't had a chance to sharpen it yet.  It's a very nice knife and the price is right.

In addition to keeping them out of the dishwasher, the other tip I've seen here is to not buy a set.  You get too many knives that way, more than you need.  I need only three knives in my kitchen: small (paring), medium, and large.  On occasion a boning knife is also needed.