another note to Steve (and the forum)

[Ken S]

Steve,
I put this note in woodworking because it does not pertain to the Tormek, but, I believe, may be of interest to you and other members of the forum.

Brian Burns sent me an email advising me of his new online video.  Here is the link:

http://www.planetarypegs.com/doublebevelsharpeninghirez_video_page.html

Brian is a luthier (guitar maker) who has devised a very good sharpening system.  As you mentioned you plan to attend a guitar making school, I thought Brian's ideas might interest you.  His system is clever, well thought through, and very well fitted to work like instrument building.  Essentially it is designed for mostly honing planes and chisels and adapting planes to the specialized woods used in instrument making. While it is not as versatile as the Tormek system (no knives, turning tools, planer blades, etc., it does seem very well suited for its purpose.

Enjoy.

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Hey thanks Ken. I guess my real question is who decided that 8000 was as far as we need to go. How can we be certain that 30,000 isn't the real target?
Steve

[Ken S]

Steve,

Machinists have a good saying.  Something is either "within tolerance" or not.  Before waterstones became popular, arkansas stones were "within tolerance".  Actually, I suspect most edges never saw anything finer than a fine India stone.  That was probably "within tolerance" at the time, and would pass muster for a lot of work today.

I'm no metallurgist, but it seems to me the rarified air above 8000 grit should have very fine grain steel.  That would mean O1 instead of A2, and very carefully hardened.  The real weak link would generally be the operator.  Not only would operators (like me) have a hard time really squeezing the last bit of sharpness out of a 30,000 grit stone, we probably wouldn't stop to resharpen every time the sharpness got below 24,000 grit.

Has anyone on the forum found a real life situation where a well sharpened and honed edge from the Tormek is not adequately sharp?  If so, or if not, please comment.

Ken

[Steve Brown]

Ken,
I spent several hours the other day on a badly knicked Marples chisel. I took a lot of care lapping, got the knick out, took the bevel up to 8000 and put a micro bevel on. Stropped the front and back with green compound and ended up with a pretty good edge. I took a Matsumura chisel out of the box and it was sharper than the Marples I had just spent several hours on. So I guess the moral of the story is how sharp do you really want it and can you get there with the steel you have. I can tell you this, I will never again buy anything other than Japanese steel. And I will probably get that 30,00 grit ceramic stone and see how sharp I can get that Matsumura. In my opinion, there is a huge difference between the O1 Japanese steel and just about any other steel. And at the end of the day I must say, the sharper the better. If 30,00 is the best I can do, I guess that's where I'll have to be satisfied for now. I would just like to hear from anyone that has some good steel and regularly sharpens to 30,000.
Steve

[Ken S]

Steve,

Given the cost difference between the Marples and Matsumura chisels, I hope the Matsumura hold an edge better.

I do think there are other factors in play.

If you spent several hours working on one Marples (or any other) chisel, I would question the efficiency of the technique.  The Tormek should make quick work of the process.  Did you start with a freshly dressed coarse stone?  The diamond dresser gives the coarsest grit.

Did you flatten the back with the side of the Tormek wheel?  Polishing the back should just take a short visit with the 4000 and 8000 stones.  (That is polishing, not flattening.)

The bevel right off the Tormek fine stone should be ok as is.  If you choose not to use the leather honing wheel, you should be able to to directly to a micro bevel, if you wish.  The micro bevel should be quick work perhaps starting with 1000 and then 8000.

If that does not produce a satisfactory sharp edge, I would look more closely at the technique.

Before I bought my Tormek, I used Norton water stones. They are a lot faster than the oil stones I used previously.  In hindsight, I was using the Norton stones incorrectly.  My 1000 grit stone is almost half gone.  My 220 is like new.  I would have saved myself a lot of work and time if I had started with the 220 grit stone and only used the 1000 as the next in line.  (i think that is the main reason sharpening takes so long; people use too fine a stone for the work part.)

If cost is no object, the Matsumura and other Japanese chisels are very fine tools.  I have found that my Marples and Stanley chisels don't hold a keen edge for much work.  They do need more frequent "refreshing".  (So does the chiseler, so maybe our schedules are in synch.)

Going the distance with a fine chisel meticulously honed to 30,000 grit would certainly be a fine thing.  If I ever do that, I won't let anyone actually use that chisel, myself included.  For inlaying a hinge or cutting a few dovetails, I'll grab my faithful Stanleys or Marples and touch them up as needed on the Tormek.

Ionut's idea of a second Tormek with an SJ (Japanese 4000 wheel) does sound tempting................

Ken
 

[Steve Brown]

Hi Ken,
I think the use is the thing here. If I'm mortising a hinge, my sharpened Marples will do just fine. If I trying to take a thousand off of an x-brace that's going into an expensive guitar, I might want to have something a bit sharper.
Steve

[Ken S]

Hi back, Steve.

I agree.  That's why I posted Brian Burns' video for you.  I would be very surprised if Brian's "dull" chisels and planes were not very close to quite sharp.  i think that's the real secret of maintaining edges--not letting them get very far from quite sharp.  "Quite sharp" can depend on the use, but I believe the idea has merit.

When do you start your guitar making classes?

Ken

PS I bought a copy of Brian's Double Bevel Sharpening from him.  It's a well done book and could be a real bacon saver for working with difficult grained wood.

[Steve Brown]

Hi Ken,
Believe it or not, I read Brian's sharpening description, but I forgot to watch the video. I just watched it. Do you have any Japanese steel?
Steve

[Ken S]

Steve,

I bought a 5/8" "bachi nomi" (a fishtail chisel) to clean out half blind dovetails.  I believe it's a Matsumura.  It loks like a very well made tool, although it's a fairly new purchase, and I haven't used it yet.

Ken