oboe knife

[brettgrant99]

So my daughter is learning to play the oboe, and at a point where she needs to be making oboe reeds.

Her teacher seemed very dubious of using the T7 to sharpen oboe knifes them and was wondering if anyone here has done them before.  I agreed to get her some bench stones, but I still think that the T7 could do a better job, or at least as good of a job much quicker.

Anyway, one brand of knife has a different bevel angle on each side.  When I asked about that, I was told that it was to eliminate the burr, but that doesn't make any sense to me.  Any ideas as to why one would do this?

Thanks,
Brett

[Ken S]

Brett,

I have not sharpened oboe knives.  (I hope someone will reply who actually has sharpened them.)  My daughter played the oboe many years ago.  That was in the era of oil stones.

I remember about that time WCLV, the Cleveland commercial fine art radio station, was running a fund raiser for the Cleveland Orchestra.  Various orchestra members were sharing talents (musical, cooking, photography, etc.) for a donation.  Among the prizes was a private reed making lesson with John Mack, Principal Oboist, and one of the top reed makers in the country.  My daughter was very young at the time, but, in hindsight, that would have been a rare opportunity.

The burrless double bevel knife sounds interesting, but, like you, I am a bit skeptical.

Reed making involves very fine paring.  Certainly the Tormek could handle the preliminary sharpening, and very quickly.  You might consider finishing the job with a very fine waterstone or ceramic stone.  Wayne Barton, the chip carver, uses the expression "refreshing his edges" with a fine (waterless) ceramic stone.

I recently read (on Harrelson Stanley's website, the guy who designed and sells the side moving honing jig) about "edge jointing".  This involves making a very light right angle pass along the finest stone before the final honing.  The theory is it gets rid of the microscopic bumps on the edge.

I hope others will respond, and that you will keep posting what you find out.

Ken

[Ken S]

Brett,

Your post piques my curiosity.  I talked my my former oboe playing daughter, who played in the old oil stone days.  I did some preliminary googling "oboe reed knife/ sharpening".  The one supply house featured knives in the hundred dollar range. (No wonder the teacher is a bit gun shy about using a grinder.  The teacher probably has no idea about the difference between a dry grinder and a Tormek.)

Apparently the oboe community has not read Ron Hock's fine book on sharpening.  Some more modern stones were listed, however, the oil stones are still players.  Even the triangular arrangement where three stones of different grits shared a common oil bath, as did their swarf.  These were in vogue during the last millennium.

For sharpening one knife used in reed making, one could buy a lot of high tech sandpaper and a glass or granite surface for less than the price of regular sharpening stones.  And, it would always be flat.  I would suggest thinking carefully before spending on stones.

One article described using a burr on the knife edge to scrape the reed.  Is this part of the reed making process?   

Ken

[brettgrant99]

I am not familiar with Ron Hock.  What book did he write?

I was going to get her a set of DMT 6" 'stones'.  Her teacher seemed to think that diamond would work ok.
I don't know about the burr - she will be getting started.  I am just now getting the stuff.

I wouldn't call it hazing, but it seems like there is a lot of "This is the way I learned to do it, and it works, so I don't deviate" attitudes when you start reading the different oboe forums.  Her teacher actually watched some tormek videos, I don't know which ones, and thought that the machine would work.  She just also wanted my daughter to know how to do it by hand, too.  I think that that is reasonable, too.  If all my daughter knows how to use is the machine, it really is the same attitude as those in the stone camp, just different equipment.

I do find it interesting that oboists think that $100 knife is expensive, but it all a matter of perspective. 

I just bought an oboe for my daughter (now that was expensive), and it came with an old knife.  I will start to play with that, and keep y'all informed.

Brett

[Ken S]

Brett,

Ron Hock's book is The Perfect Edge.  It includes much more than the tormek, however, he is Tormek friendly.  Ron is a knife and blade maker.  I think his book should be part of the reference bookshelf of every serious sharpener.  Also, after reading it, I had some questions and emailed him.  He answered my emails and my questions.

I think you have made  good choice with the diamond stones.  Your daughter won't have problems keeping them flat, and they should cut very well.  I think the Tormek is certainly up to sharpening an oboe knife.  I also think the teacher is wise to have your daughter learn how to sharpen by hand.  (She certainly does not want to carry a Tormek as airline luggage!)

My daughter studied both cello and oboe.  Her cello teacher and first two oboe teachers were all classmates at Eastman.  All were fine musicians with Master's Degrees.  The difference was the cello teacher played with the Cleveland Orchestra.  (There are more cellists, and more job opportunities in the orchestra.)  Both oboists played in a smaller orchestra.  The cellist made a good living.  The oboists moonlighted doing waitressing and office work to make ends meet.  For them, $100 would have been a chunk of change.

I know an oboe can make a Tormek seem reasonably priced.  (I bought one, too, many years ago.)  Be grateful that you don't have to buy a bow.

The oboe makes a beautiful haunting sound.  Best of luck to your daughter with her studies.

Ken

ps Back to the Tormek:  I would suggest you start with the fine grit configuration of your stone.  I doubt the knife is more than a little dull.  (no nicks)

[brettgrant99]

I looked up the book, and ordered it today

I had a roommate that was a cello player.  I know that he paid over 10k for the bow, which amazed me at the time (1990).  Of course, he was a pretty good cello player.

The knife that I have looks like only half of it was sharpened.  It has a nice 'V' in the middle.  I was going to regrind it so the edge is straight, and then sharpen it.

Thanks for the conversation,
Brett

[Ken S]

"The knife that I have looks like only half of it was sharpened."

That may be the crux of the problem.  I wonder how many oboe students give up reed making because they don't know how to properly sharpen their knives.  I wonder how many turners get discouraged because their turning tools are not sharp; how many woodworkers never get good results with their dull tools, and how many cooks muddle along with dull knives.

You have the opportunity  to share a very important skill for reed making with your daughter (in addition to driving and funding the operation!).

I have enjoyed this conversation, also.

Ken

[nhblacksmith]

My daughter plays bassoon which is also a double reed instrument with similar reed making demands.  She played through high school, eight years full time with the Marine Corps and is now with the NH Army National Guard 39th Army Band.  I will check with her when I see her but if memory serves me right, "reed making" is really the wrong term.  It's more about profiling ready made reeds for your individual requirements.  I know my daughter profiles all her own reeds.  Some folks also make their own but usually only very serious professionals.

There are different knives for taking thin shavings off the round root of the reed and for scraping the thin, flattened section that goes in the mouth.  Some are hollow ground both sides and others have only a single bevel.  I used to sharpen her knives on an oil stone before purchasing the Tormek.  The Tormek is more than capable of doing a good job but profiling is an ongoing task and having the ability to sharpen the knives in the field during use might make a small stone more practical.  There is a book on sharpening reed making knives at:

http://nielsen-woodwinds.com/p-5043-book-reed-knife-sharpening-book-by-daryl-caswell.aspx

Neal

[Ken S]

Excellent post, Neal.

[Ken S]

Bret, how did the oboe knife sharpening go?

What do you think of the sharpening book?

Ken

[brettgrant99]

Maybe it is because I am a mechanical engineer, but I didn't really find it too helpful.  I'm talking about the steel information.  I would have liked more on the geometry/mechanics of some of the tools, with more info on various techniques and advantages/disadvantages.

I do want to review it, I've had some time to let it process.  I do think it is one of the better written books that I have seen on sharpening, I just wanted more details.  I would certainly recommend it, and the cost was phenomenally good.  A lot of info for 15 bucks.  I do want to buy one of those usb microscopes, too! I also bought a sharpening book from the manufacturer of one brand of reed knife, and it is nearly worthless.

I had a small medical issue to take care of, so I haven't actually done any sharpening, I was hoping to tackle it this weekend.

Now that NCAA Football is over, I have more free time on the weekends   Its a good thing that the only sports that I watch are football and the Tour de France  , or nothing would get done.

[brettgrant99]

So I finally got around to playing around with this knife.

This particular knife is double-hollow ground.  It didn't fit in the jig, so I tried free-hand sharpening.  A first for me

It didn't go quite as well as I had hoped, but the knife shaves very nicely - it just looks ugly.  I had a hard time keeping a consistent angle.  I guess that it just takes practice.

The other issue was that the blade wasn't about an inch longer than the wheel is wide.  With all knifes, I have trouble not grinding a hook at the end.  I know why it happens, but I haven't figured out how not to do it when the blade is short.  Long knifes I have no problem with.

Here is a shot of what I started with:


So I then ground it flat, and ran it over the honing wheel to clean up some of the oxidation.  You can't really tell, but it did look a quite a bit better:



Here is a shot in the jig, you can see it isn't straight, so I then tried freehand sharpening.



Here is the final product.



It is razor sharp, but there are several layers of grinding marks that make it look pretty ugly.  I will show it to the teacher and see if she thinks it is sharp enough.

Any comments on how to avoid the hook, let me know 

Brett

[Ken S]

Brett,

Nice post, and nice sharpening job.  Good photographs, too.  The original reminded me of some of the telephone splicer's knives I've seen over the years with "creative" sharpening.

Thanks for the follow through.  Do post the "verdict" from the teacher.

Ken