Confused Tormek User

[BUTCHER]

I am a fairly new Tormek T8 user with a T8 standard wheel.
I sharpen at 15 dps on the original stone graded to about medium to fine grit till I feel the burr.My bess scores are around 120 honing on the leather wheel at exact angle 15 degrees 4 times per side, then 2 degrees higher 3 times per side lightly, then finishing with one pass at exact angle.
When I use them for meat cutting poultry or red meat they dont seem to cut as well as my belt sharpened knives used to.I'm confused as to why that is since the knives feel a lot sharper than the belt sharpened ones used to Does anyone have thoughts on that?

[cbwx34]

I am a fairly new Tormek T8 user with a T8 standard wheel.
I sharpen at 15 dps on the original stone graded to about medium to fine grit till I feel the burr.My bess scores are around 120 honing on the leather wheel at exact angle 15 degrees 4 times per side, then 2 degrees higher 3 times per side lightly, then finishing with one pass at exact angle.
When I use them for meat cutting poultry or red meat they dont seem to cut as well as my belt sharpened knives used to.I'm confused as to why that is since the knives feel a lot sharper than the belt sharpened ones used to Does anyone have thoughts on that?

What is your belt sharpening procedure?  And how does it compare to the Tormek sharpening, like abrasive used, honing compound, etc.

Offhand, I'd say your belt sharpened ones are left a bit more aggressive (more "teeth")... something a BESS tester may not tell you.

[BUTCHER]

That makes some sense even though I would have thought the finely honed etremely sharp edge would cut better.
I guess I have to figure out a way to make an edge with more "teeth" thats still lasting and durable.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

[cbwx34]

That makes some sense even though I would have thought the finely honed etremely sharp edge would cut better.
I guess I have to figure out a way to make an edge with more "teeth" thats still lasting and durable.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

I debur/touchup my kitchen knives with a fine ceramic.

[tgbto]

I'd second what @cbwx34 wrote, and any help you can get in using a ceramic rod at just above the sharpening angle is a good idea. I found that without any indication, I would almost always use the rod at a much higher angle than necessary. You might want to check this thread for more info on this.

Also, for almost all standard kitchen knives, I don't grade the SG-250 stone fine, I just leave it in its natural "in-between" state, before honing on the leather wheel with the standard Tormek compound. That results in around 100-BESS. Too fine an edge would -granted- get a lower BESS but would feel dull faster, especially on soft vegetables. I also tend to hone a *lot*, as my first BESS scores coupled to crude microscopy showed that the burr would not be completely eliminated after just 10 passes. So I tend to do a few first very slow strokes @ around +1dps, then probably around 15 passes without changing the angle. It depends on the steel though.

Still, my feeling is that very fine edges tend to fare better with fresh meat than with tomatoes, for example.

[BUTCHER]

What I have been trying is honing edge trailing on the Japanese water stone using the same procedure as on the leather wheel and the edge feels like it has a bit more bite. It seems to work better if I do the last couple of passes really light and I get to around 160 to 200 Bess. I have not yet used these knives all day when cutting meat so not sure how the edge will last as compared to the finer one.I have also gone from 15 dps to 18 dps for the boning knives since it seems like the edge folds over too easy on the 15dps when you are going hard at it deboning

[tgbto]

My personal experience is that honing on the SJ stone results in an invisible wire of ductile metal along the edge. Embedded in the edge if using the SJ edge leading, or a micro-foil if using the SJ edge trailing. All the experiments I tried ended up with BESS score being lower after honing on the leather wheel after SJ.

You should be able to get BESS scores consistently lower than 160 with or without the SJ in your process. After a few hundred knives on the Tormek, a 160 BESS score indicates that the burr is not completely removed, and you may very well see a slight dent in your edge if you examine it closely (see this thread to better see what I'm talking about, also at 320 BESS it is much more extreme.

Also research by the late Wootz seems to show that edge retention is better on lower-angle knife, so the best angle even for boning knives should be "as low as you can get without the edge crumbling". And it depends on the steel and how it was heat-treated.

[John_B]

I found that the sharpness of my knives was improved markedly when I started using a FVB (Front Vericle Base) for honing. I was able to accurately set the honing angle for almost all of the knives to 1.5 degrees more than the sharpening angle. I also have a second leather wheel treated with 1 micron diamonds that improves the edge a bit more. For my kitchen and butchering this is really not needed. Be wary of "toothy" edges they dull very quickly. I too use a ceramic rod occasionally and a steel every use.

[tgbto]

I fully agree with the positive impact of the use of a FVB / MB-102 for honing...

Be wary of "toothy" edges they dull very quickly. I too use a ceramic rod occasionally and a steel every use.

... but I'm not sure what you mean here... Edges following the use of a ceramic rod are typically keen yet quite toothy (if by that we mean the opposite of polished). There has been a lot of debate on whether a polished edge dulls faster than a toothier one or not, and I'm not sure this has been proven one way of the other yet. Research by the late Wootz seems to show that edge retention depends mostly on the initial angle, not really on initial sharpness.

[BUTCHER]

I'm wondering based on what Wootz talks about in his deburring book if I can get a bit of a "toothier edge" for lack of a better term by grinding at 400 grit, then do initial deburring with a 5 to 6-micron compound such as auto sol and then remove the root of the burr by using rock hard felt with 1-micron diamonds then the cleanup step with the green chromium bar.
Will this create a "toothier edge" that's still sharp or will all the steps I'm using still make the edge fine?
I'm also questioning whether I'm rounding off the apex slightly and losing a bit of sharpness by using the leather honing wheel for the whole procedure versus the rock-hard felt that I have ordered but not yet tried.
Any thoughts?