Starting over thoughts

[Ken S]

When I purchased my first Tormek in 2009, the T7 was essentially the only choice in the US. At the time, I wanted to sharpen my woodworking tools and was not especially interested in sharpening knives. I have no complaints; the T7 is a fine machine and continues to serve me well. A chance opportunity to study with Tormek knife guru, Steve Bottorff, opened my mind to the possibility of sharpening knives.

In August, during my visit to Tormek in Sweden, I had the opportunity of watching Johan Englund, Tormek's worldwide manager for the T2, demonstrate the T2. From Johan, I learned that the T2 is a specialty machine, not a machine "just" for knives. It deftly sharpens specialty non knife kitchen blades as well as cutlery. Some of these blades would be difficult to sharpen with a traditional Tormek.

I have been using my T2 more recently. As a senior citizen, my health issues make it difficult to use the stairs to reach my basement workshop. I am very grateful to have my T2 on my dining room table.

My thinking has changed to believing that a new Tormek sharpener specializing in knives might be better served by starting with a T2 instead of the tradition T8. I do not mean to discourage anyone from purchasing a T8, only to say that I believe for a knife sharpening business, he might be further ahead to begin with a T2 and use a T8 as the "supplemental" machine.

Attached is a link to the online class Johan does with Sebastien:

https://www.youtube.com/live/dCe3bKc5Ym8?si=cnhnC3HWRK07Lu2z

Ken

[Stovepipe]

I couldn't agree more with your comments. I have two T8's and struggle with the setup and adjustment of the support bar for proper angle alignment. Started using the T2 with a black magic marker and results were outstanding. Purchased the coarse and fine grit wheels to compliment the 600 grit supplied wheel and now use it as my go to sharpener for bulk or house knifes where I want to get a nice edge quickly.

Well said Ken, if you haven't been using your T2, honestly give it a try, you'll be impressed.

[tgbto]

Ken,

[...] for a knife sharpening business, he might be further ahead to begin with a T2 and use a T8 as the "supplemental" machine.[...]

I am not sure I follow you there: what would said sharpener do with the T-2 once they have the T-8 _{especially if their workshop is not downstairs} ? The only advantage I see with the T-2 is that it requires less of a learning curve. Aside from that, it is almost as pricey, almost as big, much less flexible.

To elaborate abit on the last point, countless discussions have arisen here on how the bevel will widen at the tip if you keep a constant angle, and a professional sharpener will not want to  change the look of their customers' knives. The T-2 forces you to use a constant angle. The T-2 generates dust when you do heavy work, such as reprofiling a knife. Not to mention the fact that it will do just knives.

I believe Tormek advertise the T-2 as targeting restaurant chefs who want to maintain their knives. I'm at a loss as to how the T-8 would be supplemental and not the primary sharpening tool of a pro sharpener.

I wonder : why didn't you install your T-8 Black edition on your dining room table, with no water in the trough ? I think it makes for an even more impressive display of sharpening prowess...

I have two T8's and struggle with the setup and adjustment of the support bar for proper angle alignment.

I guess that may lead to a sound an advice for aspiring professional sharpeners (as that was the OP's intended audience) : Wait before you no longer struggle with the sharpie trick on your first T-8 before you purchase the second one.
The T-8 angle adjustment mechanism with the MicroAdjust nut allows for minute adjustments to the sharpening angle, so much so that one can decide where on a 1mm-wide bevel they want to remove the ink (as can be necessary on a rather convex bevel). It is much coarser on the T-2.

[GeoBoy]

If it is just knife sharpening that one desires/requires then isn't the T-1 a better/less expensive option?

[Ken S]

When I decided to post this topic, I was not trying to stir up controversy. I expected and welcome other points of view. The ideas I put forth in this topic seem to work for my requirements. They may or may not work for others. As such, I offer them as suggestions.

Over the years, I have read many complaints about how long it takes to sharpen knives with a Tormek. This delay can be caused by many sources. I detect a common thread of wanting to decrease time per knife in order to increase profit. That's fair enough, as long as the increase in productivity does not come at serious decrease in quality.

The T2 can handle the majority of kitchen and pocket knives with little or no adjustments. Even cleavers are easily done with a modicum of practice. It really shines with steak knives.

I think a skillfully used T2 can easily meet most sharpening needs, especially in a farmers market environment where speed counts. I will concede that a customer with a several hundred dollar knife might want a more polished job, probably wanting to include the 4000 grit SJ-250. He should be exp cited to be charged for this extra service. The typical customer is probably delighted to have his Victorinox knives razor sharp, sharpened as the Swedish Culinary Team knives are sharpened.

Ken

[Ken S]

If it is just knife sharpening that one desires/requires then isn't the T-1 a better/less expensive option?

Geoboy, the T1 is another workable option. I would study them both; each has pros and cons.

Ken

[cbwx34]

...
My thinking has changed to believing that a new Tormek sharpener specializing in knives might be better served by starting with a T2 instead of the tradition T8. I do not mean to discourage anyone from purchasing a T8, only to say that I believe for a knife sharpening business, he might be further ahead to begin with a T2 and use a T8 as the "supplemental" machine.
...

Might be worth pointing out that, (depending on how you interpret this), there's a significant reduction in the T-2 warranty used for a business...

8-year warranty*, 5 years + 3 years, upon registration within 90 days from purchase.

Applies to all Tormek T-2 with purchase date December 1st, 2020, or later (regardless of what is written on the package).

* When used for a professional sharpening service the warranty of Tormek T-2 Pro Kitchen Knife Sharpener is 2 years.

Clue? 

[Ken S]

CB,

For me, the real issue is do I have faith in Tormek to manufacture  quality, long lasting product and to stand by it.

I realize we live in an era with many unscrupulous manufacturers and vendors. "Lifetime warranty" frequently becomes whatever the vendor chooses to make the lifetime of the product instead of the buyer. In Ohio, the legal definition of a "lifetime" is seven years, which I think is shameful.

I also realize that I have had more direct experience with Tormek than most of the forum. Frankly, I value my faith in Tormek much more than a piece of paper. I expect my T2 to last ten to fifteen years, at least. I do not use it professionally, although I would have the same longevity expectations even if I did. I felt the same even before I visited Tormek. My visit reaffirmed my belief in Tormek.

I sent a screen shot of your post to Johan in Sweden. I asked him to investigate the number of T2s now defective due to professional overuse.with his travel schedule, it may take several days to receive an answer, which I will post. Let the facts decide the issue.

Ken

[tgbto]

• Single purpose, no scissors or woodworking tools sharpening ever.
• Pivoting only, no way to implement the "lifting" action that is advised with the T-8/T-4.
• No 4000-grit.
• No precise angle setting.
• More heterogeneous scratch pattern.
• Warranty limitation for professional sharpening businesses

Are those not facts ?

All this for saving a professional sharpener a few hours on training ? It makes no sense to me. Kind of saying a professional housekeeper would be better off buying a Roomba instead of a traditional vacuum cleaner.

[cbwx34]

...
 Frankly, I value my faith in Tormek much more than a piece of paper.
...

I've concluded you're a Mythbusters fan...

I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

(Or maybe a Dr. Who fan?)

...
I sent a screen shot of your post to Johan in Sweden. I asked him to investigate the number of T2s now defective due to professional overuse.with his travel schedule, it may take several days to receive an answer, which I will post. Let the facts decide the issue.
...

So, my T-2 breaks, and I realize that if I tell Tormek I used it in a business, it voids the warranty... 

[tgbto]

So, my T-2 breaks, and I realize that if I tell Tormek I used it in a business, it voids the warranty... 

But no worries, you'll have your backup T-8 up and running in no time  !

[Ken S]

Johan sent a prompt, thorough reply to my email. In fairness to him, I want to verify that I have his permission to post it on this public forum. I will keep you all posted.

Part of the Tormek museum is a collection of almost every model manufactured by Tormek. The "T2 Concept" of a machine for specialized restaurant use sharpening goes way back with Tormek, back through several models. Even the present generation, the T2, was thoroughly test marketed long trusted restaurant affiliates locally in Sweden before the testing and marketing was expanded.

I have no idea whether or not there is an internationally or nationally accepted standard of bevel angle accuracy for kitchen knives. I doubt that most chefs know or care. A chef knows if his knife is cutting like it should. If these trusted, known Swedish chefs had not agreed that their knife sharpness was up to standard, I honestly believe that Tormek would have gone back to the draft board or scrapped the project.

I will post more information as I receive it.

ken

[tgbto]

I'm not sure the question was "can a knife be kept sharp enough for a restaurant chef with a T-2", but rather "is it a good idea for a professional knife sharpener to start with a T-2 to get a head start, and have a supplemental T-8".

Those are two very different questions.

I understand the T-2 market as precisely being those chefs who want to *not* use the services of a professional sharpener.

[Ken S]

As promised, here is my email from Johan Englund, Tormek's T2 Manager. As a courtesy to Johan, I have waited to post until I received his permission. The emai is not edited:

Hello Ken,
Thanks for your mail.
 
Answer to your question is actually none. We have had zero Tormek T-2 coming back that have been overused and worn out.
Yes , we have had few machines coming back, less than 8, that had motor problem and few machines with problem with the switch.
Otherwise, we have had people wearing out the diamond or honing wheel and the plastic clip on the jig. These items are consumables, so it is not under warranty.
 
Since the Tormek T-2 Pro Kitchen is based on our T-4 model it has the same industrial motor that is tested for 10000 hours, so if you are a chef and sharpen 2 hours a week it´s 96 years or if you sharpen 5 hours a day/7 days a week it is 5,5 years. These machines have all the certification for Intertec and other similar institutions regarding tests for use in damp/wet environment plus that we here at Tormek does long tests of our machines, so we know that they are good.
 
So, Tormek T-2 is a longlasting machine and for our environment this is good, less articles that will go in the bin because of poor quality.
As you know we are a company that does the opposite of other companies and build machines that shall last for a long time instead of selling new, plus you can repair our machines.
We think of our environment.
 
Have a great day.
 
Best regards,
Johan Englund
Marketing Manager T-2
 

I suspect one would find similar very low return figures with any of the Tormek models, or products from other high end companies.

Ken
 

[cbwx34]

It doesn't address your original post though.  So now, "screenshot" this and ask him what he thinks of the original advice...

...
My thinking has changed to believing that a new Tormek sharpener specializing in knives might be better served by starting with a T2 instead of the tradition T8. I do not mean to discourage anyone from purchasing a T8, only to say that I believe for a knife sharpening business, he might be further ahead to begin with a T2 and use a T8 as the "supplemental" machine.
...

... specifically, buying a T-2 for a knife sharpening business over a T-8.  That's what this is about.