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Knife Angle Setter "Black Edition"

Started by Perra, April 19, 2023, 11:59:12 AM

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Perra

Quote from: Ken S on April 21, 2023, 03:19:23 PMDo not become discouraged. Neither of us has a profit motive, only to share with the community. We need that spirit. Carry on!

Ken

Hi Ken
Thanks for your comments.
I fully understand Tormek's actions. They must of course be careful about their patents and fine tools. Too bad they didn't check more often among all the posts we make, then maybe I would have received a signal earlier because I posted my prototypes gradually since a long time ago. But everything usually works out and we have been in contact and I am invited to Tormek for a visit.
I will give them a present. you probably know what... ;D
So if you also want a gift you must become my friend first.... ;)

/Perra

tgbto

I guess that indeed checks the box for the knife angle setter, that's useful, it looks well engineered as always (and by the looks of it it is going to be co$tly). That being said, I think the calculator(or Dutchman's tables)/caliper method with USB-to-wheel distance measurement is going to remain my favorite one, because it is so quick. The 150-250mm means this could also be used to set the honing angle, but you'd have to change it each time... unless you get two of them.

I'm thinking maybe a raspberry pi nano (or similar), with a rotating knob, a joystick and a LCD display in a IP55 casing, could do the trick.

I would put the reversed-VUSB/built-in-FVB as well on the list of things that Tormek deems unnecessary until they make it.

Ken S

I think Dutchman was an excellent choice to review the new prototype angle setting tool. His posted booklets on angle setting were the first and led to the whole movement of more controlled, accurate angle setting. None of us understands angle setting more than Dutchman.

I expect the new angle setting tool to be "co$tlier". It is far more sophisticated and precise than the Anglemaster. It will have a more limited buying pool of users willing to pay the extra cost. And, the research and development costs are incurred at today's more inflated cost of living. (As a side note, I had expected the new knife jig, the KJ-45, to be considerably more expensive for the samereasons. While wedon't like the elimination of the end stop adjustments, a more sophisticated jig would have been considerable co$tlier. (Have we priced Starrett quality machine tools or groceries lately?)

Ken

TireguyfromMA

Perra, very impressive! You singlehandedly, and unknowingly, came up with the same tool that TORMEK was working on. One question about the function of this more precise angle setting tool. If I set it up to sharpen  at 12dps on a 250mm wheel, can I then use it on the 215mm leather or composite honing wheel to accurately hone the same knife by just changing the wheel diameter setting?

Perra

Quote from: TireguyfromMA on April 26, 2023, 05:14:28 AMPerra, very impressive! You singlehandedly, and unknowingly, came up with the same tool that TORMEK was working on. One question about the function of this more precise angle setting tool. If I set it up to sharpen  at 12dps on a 250mm wheel, can I then use it on the 215mm leather or composite honing wheel to accurately hone the same knife by just changing the wheel diameter setting?

Hi
Thanks for kind words!
Yes you can do that. Put the tool on the honing wheel and it adjusts the scale according to the diameter of the wheel by itself, just release the locking screw on the back and press down a little gently, then of course you have to adjust your usb support up or down so you get the same angle or whatever angle you want to use . The purpose of the tool is to be able to easily set the usb height on different wheel diameters with as few other adjustments as possible. If you have set the jig-projection length correctly, one time, from the beginning, you only need to adjust the usb height to show the angle you want. You have to do that yourself, set the usb height, for now. Perhaps an improvement - self-adjusting usb height  ;D  ;D

Perra

I have made a test model with a spring loaded wheel adjustment but that means I have to hold the tool down against the wheel while setting the usb height and it was too difficult to do all this without variations. So I use a locking screw on the wheel setting instead to avoid measurement errors. It also works well and easily. It only takes a few seconds to change the wheel size and I don't have to guess the diameter because that function is built into the tool.

Dutchman

Quote from: Perra on April 26, 2023, 11:35:22 AM... snip
that function is built into the tool.
and that's an additional feature that Tormek's new angle-adjuster lacks  ;)

TireguyfromMA

Any news when the TORMEK Angle Adjuster will be available?


cbwx34

Quote from: TireguyfromMA on June 17, 2023, 10:08:14 PMAny news when the TORMEK Angle Adjuster will be available?

This didn't instill confidence in my earlier answer...  ???  :(   ;)
Knife Sharpening Angle Calculator:
Calcapp Calculator-works on any platform. New url!
(or Click HERE to see other calculators available)

Perra

Some thoughts after a while.
If you want to achieve a certain edge angle, you have to take into account that as soon as you start sharpening, all the basic values change because you remove material from the knife, therefore the angle will not be the one you think you set from the beginning.  Regardless of the method you use for the setup.
How many of you usually take into account that the projection length changes while grinding?
If I am going to fix a worn knife, I can easily reduce the height of the knife by 1mm, this gives an angle error of approx. 0.6 degrees. I sometimes redo the setting with a new projection length before I fine tune the last few times to get the angle I want. Or I set an angle of 17 degrees on a worn knife when I want a finished result of 18 degrees when I'm done.
I have found that it is very quick to check and set new values with a tool like my "Knife Angle Setter" or perhaps Tormek's new jig.  Just set a new projection length by, copy the knife+jig, to the setter and adjust the Usb height to the angle value you want. It takes no more than a couple of seconds! And it feels more hands on and that I have more control over the process than compare to other methods. The Setter becomes a more active part of the grinding process than my computer ever gone be. Sorry ThinkPad!
I have received feedback on my tool from several friends who have received a copy and so far the feedback I have received is very positive. Great fun! And that should be positive for Tormek's new jig as well, because our tools work on the same principles. Almost!
/Perra

cbwx34

Quote from: Perra on June 21, 2023, 12:53:47 PMSome thoughts after a while.
If you want to achieve a certain edge angle, you have to take into account that as soon as you start sharpening, all the basic values change because you remove material from the knife, therefore the angle will not be the one you think you set from the beginning.  Regardless of the method you use for the setup.
How many of you usually take into account that the projection length changes while grinding?
If I am going to fix a worn knife, I can easily reduce the height of the knife by 1mm, this gives an angle error of approx. 0.6 degrees. I sometimes redo the setting with a new projection length before I fine tune the last few times to get the angle I want. Or I set an angle of 17 degrees on a worn knife when I want a finished result of 18 degrees when I'm done.
I have found that it is very quick to check and set new values with a tool like my "Knife Angle Setter" or perhaps Tormek's new jig.  Just set a new projection length by, copy the knife+jig, to the setter and adjust the Usb height to the angle value you want. It takes no more than a couple of seconds! And it feels more hands on and that I have more control over the process than compare to other methods. The Setter becomes a more active part of the grinding process than my computer ever gone be. Sorry ThinkPad!
I have received feedback on my tool from several friends who have received a copy and so far the feedback I have received is very positive. Great fun! And that should be positive for Tormek's new jig as well, because our tools work on the same principles. Almost!
/Perra

The Projection Distance rarely changes in sharpening to any significance.  The only time it does is if you're grinding out damage, or you incorrectly sharpen a very dull knife, by grinding one side until a burr is formed, (creating a noticeable offset), then flipping the blade over.  (You can of course alter the PD in other ways, for example over-grinding at a higher angle.)  Most of this has come up before...

I've said it before, but I think "accuracy" to fractions of a degree is really unnecessary.  It was oversold when using a calculator first came up.  The main goal of using a calculator, and now your tool, is to overcome the deficiencies of the AngleMaster.  (Which after years of denial, Tormek has apparently now admitted to.)  ::)   ;) 

One thing I do like about your device is the "immediate feedback"... you can see the angle you're sharpening at, vs. a calculator, where you have to "trust" that 'X' distance from the wheel (or casing) = the angle, if that makes sense.  This probably adds to the... "feels more hands on" statement you made.
Knife Sharpening Angle Calculator:
Calcapp Calculator-works on any platform. New url!
(or Click HERE to see other calculators available)

Sir Amwell

What is also really good about Per's angle setting tool is the confidence it gives in using with wheels of different diameters, for example from a CBN to the leather honing wheel and then maybe to a slightly larger than 250mm paper wheel on a different machine (there is wriggle room to go above 250mm).
So much simpler than inputting data with differing parameters into a calculator then fiddling about with callipers and adjusting USB accordingly.
And I totally agree with CBX, it feels much more satisfying to see that angle clearly on the scale than trusting that a measurement is right.

Perra

Quote from: cbwx34 on June 21, 2023, 04:21:55 PMThe Projection Distance rarely changes in sharpening to any significance.  The only time it does is if you're grinding out damage, or you incorrectly sharpen a very dull knife, by grinding one side until a burr is formed, (creating a noticeable offset), then flipping the blade over.  (You can of course alter the PD in other ways, for example over-grinding at a higher angle.) 

Hi cb
Just wait until you see some of the knives I get to work with... you might change your mind.  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Dan

Quote from: cbwx34 on June 21, 2023, 04:21:55 PMThe main goal of using a calculator, and now your tool, is to overcome the deficiencies of the AngleMaster.  (Which after years of denial, Tormek has apparently now admitted to.)  ::)  ;) 


Is this really the case? Can you tell us where they have admitted this, please?
I would like to know if I am misusing it or expecting too much from it.
How inaccurate is it, really? and is it more inaccurate for knives or one sided bevels like chisels etc?

I would appreciate any thoughts/info

Danny

cbwx34

Quote from: Dan on June 21, 2023, 09:10:09 PM
Quote from: cbwx34 on June 21, 2023, 04:21:55 PMThe main goal of using a calculator, and now your tool, is to overcome the deficiencies of the AngleMaster.  (Which after years of denial, Tormek has apparently now admitted to.)  ::)  ;) 


Is this really the case? Can you tell us where they have admitted this, please?
I would like to know if I am misusing it or expecting too much from it.
How inaccurate is it, really? and is it more inaccurate for knives or one sided bevels like chisels etc?

I would appreciate any thoughts/info

Danny

The biggest deficiency is that the AngleMaster doesn't account for blade taper from spine to edge.  For example, see this thread.  They ignored (or wouldn't admit it) as shown here.  It can be several degrees depending on the taper.

It was (in my opinion) designed for chisels, so that issue isn't there.  But there's still a question of how accurate/consistent it can be... just measure the same angle several times (even on a chisel) and the result can vary unless you're careful.

As for the "admission"...

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 ;)
Knife Sharpening Angle Calculator:
Calcapp Calculator-works on any platform. New url!
(or Click HERE to see other calculators available)