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BESS Score Decrease Due to Using Multiple Tormeks?

Started by BeSharp, July 09, 2020, 09:52:55 PM

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BeSharp

The Tormek works because it's a tight tolerance machine. I know because I first tried a Tormek "copy". That bad experience actually caused me to shy away from Tormek for a couple of years!

I now have a T-7. It's great, but for my sharpening business, it's WAAAAAAY too slow.


Somewhat following Vadim's protocols, I am considering:


1) shaping the bevel/grind off nicks with my Viel S-5, at 30 degrees.
2) continuing on Tormek machine A with a 400 grit stone
3) setting apex on Tormek machine B with a 1000 grit stone
4) deburring on felt wheel on a half-speed buffer
5) de-rooting on Tormek machine C with a rock hard felt wheel


Such a proposed setup is of course faster, as I then don't have to keep changing three wheels. But 


will there be significant sharpening BESS score increase if three Tormeks are used?




jeffs55

I am not a professional sharpener but what has the use of multiple machines got to do with an increase in sharpness? No matter how many machines are used, the edge will not be sharper than the final stones grit and length of time ground on that grit. Along with the finishing touches of honing etc.
You can use less of more but you cannot make more of less.

Ken S

Watch a master sharpener..... He does not seem to find his Tormek waaaay too slow:

https://youtu.be/8zQDmQ_n7wg

Ken

BeSharp

Quote from: jeffs55 on July 09, 2020, 11:12:45 PM
I am not a professional sharpener but what has the use of multiple machines got to do with an increase in sharpness?

My bad. I meant a possible DECREASE in sharpness, due to using three machines with three different universal support heights, versus using one machine with a set bar height.

BeSharp

Quote from: Ken S on July 10, 2020, 12:57:24 AM
Watch a master sharpener..... He does not seem to find his Tormek waaaay too slow:

https://youtu.be/8zQDmQ_n7wg

Ken

Already watched that. But he's not following the protocol I listed. I'm speaking about my own real-life experience.

Dutchman

Quote from: BeSharp on July 10, 2020, 05:12:38 AM
...
My bad. I meant a possible DECREASE in sharpness, due to using three machines with three different universal support heights, versus using one machine with a set bar height.
If you don't measure the distance to the stone when setting the USB, but instead measure it indirectly e.g. the "Wootz" method, then you are adding all kinds of tolerance sources. There is a good chance then that the sharpening angle on the various machines will deviate from one another.
The result will then not be as expected.

jeffs55

It seems to me that if you use multiple machines with their own attachments and IF you could adjust them to all the same angle, then you would be more productive. Not sharper or less sharp, just able to do the same thing faster. This would be an advantage in a business and a luxury for home use. But even then, it is only advantageous in duplicating not for one offs. If you are going to do a dozen knives for a restaurant then it is a good idea. If you are going to do a dozen knives for a dozen people with different specifications, then it might be less than worthless. Even for the dozen knives for the same restaurant, how many times are you going to do their knives? You can't tie up your machine (s) for that once a year job, can you? You are not likely to ever replicate your settings but who would ever know except you? I would not do it.
You can use less of more but you cannot make more of less.

cbwx34

Quote from: jeffs55 on July 09, 2020, 11:12:45 PM
I am not a professional sharpener but what has the use of multiple machines got to do with an increase in sharpness? No matter how many machines are used, the edge will not be sharper than the final stones grit and length of time ground on that grit. Along with the finishing touches of honing etc.

Yup...

Quote from: Dutchman on July 10, 2020, 10:13:41 AM
If you don't measure the distance to the stone when setting the USB, but instead measure it indirectly e.g. the "Wootz" method, then you are adding all kinds of tolerance sources. There is a good chance then that the sharpening angle on the various machines will deviate from one another.
The result will then not be as expected.

... and yup. ;)

My .02... if you're trying to speed things up, adding a bunch of steps seems to going in the wrong direction.  (And do your customers really care about BESS scores, or is that just a marketing technique?)

I'd use a belt sander to make repairs, and rough in a bevel if needed, then one stone to sharpen, and one step to remove the burr.  Like someone recently told me... K.I.S.S.... especially if speed is a concern.

Knife Sharpening Angle Calculator:
Calcapp Calculator-works on any platform. New url!
(or Click HERE to see other calculators available)

Ken S

BeSharp,

As I reread your post, I have more questions than answers. You correctly note that Terry Beach does not follow your protocol. Terry's protocol is finely tuned to his business needs. I imagine that he probably works in a farmers market environment, lots of knives to be sharpened in a very short time frame. I doubt any of his customers ever heard of BESS. When they get home and start to use their sharpened knives, they cut better than they ever did, a very practical test.

I have been following Vadim (Wootz) and his work ever since he joined the forum several years ago. His work is truly remarkable, and is continually evolving. He has developed a very different business model. With his meticulous workmanship, he can successfully cater to very high end customers with deep pockets. Speed is not of the essence.

Vadim has also established business relationships with the meat processing plants in Sydney, where he lives. This is also very high end work, where the companies realize the more involved deburring procedures he has pioneered are cost justified because of the increased productivity.  Vadim has documented this productivity increase with extensive research.

You have not said anything about your sharpening business, except that you feel the need for speed. If you are working in a farmers market environment, your best source of information is Steve Bottorff (sharpeningmadeeasy.com). Steve combines many years of "in the trenches" sharpening experience with the dedication of an experienced teacher and the trained educated mind of an engineer. Before he retired, Steve made a professional quality DVD made to essentially duplicate his class for younger sharpeners. I consider his Sharpening School DVD essential training for anyone considering a sharpening business.

Steve's protocols fit his business model, as do Terry's and Vadim's. What is your business model? We can answer your questions more intelligently with more information.

Please keep posting.

Ken

Jan

BeSharp,

I agree with Dutchman. As far as you are able to set up grinding/honing angle with an accuracy 0.5⁰ or better, you will get similar BESS score also if three Tormeks are used.

Jan

jvh

Hello,

Dutchman hit the nail on the head already...

Just a tip how to spare time a little bit - use more SVM jigs (and water trough) and sharpen more knives with one wheel if possible. Then you don't need to change wheels (water) so often.

jvh

RickKrung

Quote from: jvh on July 11, 2020, 11:52:23 PM
Hello,

Dutchman hit the nail on the head already...

Just a tip how to spare time a little bit - use more SVM jigs (and water trough) and sharpen more knives with one wheel if possible. Then you don't need to change wheels (water) so often.

jvh

I agree with the use of more SVM jigs to speed up operations on individual stones/deburring setps.  I have four SVM-45s and two SVM-140s but only one small knife jig as I don't see that many small knives.  I set up as many as possible at the same settings and run them in batches.  Often, I will have a group of knives from friends or now, the very occasional customer where the bevel angles are too indistinct to measure and the users don't know or care what the angle is.  In those cases, I re-set the bevels to the same angle for efficiency of grinding in groups. 

I have modified three of the SVM-45s according to Knife Grinders for the use of shims to facilitate centering of different thicknesses of blades. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice, clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.

BeSharp

Quote from: cbwx34 on July 10, 2020, 03:10:29 PM


Quote from: Dutchman on July 10, 2020, 10:13:41 AM
If you don't measure the distance to the stone when setting the USB, but instead measure it indirectly e.g. the "Wootz" method, then you are adding all kinds of tolerance sources. There is a good chance then that the sharpening angle on the various machines will deviate from one another.
The result will then not be as expected.

... and yup. ;)

My .02... if you're trying to speed things up, adding a bunch of steps seems to going in the wrong direction.  (And do your customers really care about BESS scores, or is that just a marketing technique?)

I'd use a belt sander to make repairs, and rough in a bevel if needed, then one stone to sharpen, and one step to remove the burr.  Like someone recently told me... K.I.S.S.... especially if speed is a concern.

First, I must thank everyone for their help. I've been impressed by how helpful (and civil!) everyone is here, unlike some other internet forums I've participated in!

So, more details:
1) I have just ordered two CBN wheels and a felt buffing wheel from a well-known Australian sharpener. This should mostly eliminate having to adjust the stone diameter. Of course, there are still machine tolerance variations.
2) I have been sharpening commercially for about half a year. I live (rent) in a rather ritzy area in Vancouver (average house price: $2.5 million). I would guesstimate my sharpening as 70% Henckels / Wusthof, 20% Global, and the rest Boker, Benchmade, Opinel, Shun, etc. So good quality steel from customers who have money. Sharpening prices are not a predominant concern (I have raised prices three times in six months with no decrease in business).
3) On a whim, I started issuing BESS score certificates. The customers love them. It generates LOTS of referrals. It has solved a problem I had when I first started, which is going up against established sharpeners. How could I say that my work is better? Actually, is it even better? How could I qualify any claims? So, yes, in my situation, the BESS tester has proven to be a valuable marketing tool.
4) I will be starting at a farmer's market in two weeks. It seems for most farmer's markets, speed is the key. I have a paper wheel setup, which, as I posted on another topic thread, I regularly get 250 BESS, or "good enough". However, that setup is noisier than the Tormek, and no BESS certificates - which, as I've already pointed out, has proven to be a great marketing tool in my area for my situation.
5) Fifth, I'm not interested in just doing a speedy but average job. It's just not the way I approach life, and quite frankly I would rather make less money but do quality work. For those who did not recognize the proposed protocol I listed earlier, it's from Vadim's latest Deburring Book, Appendix II (except I'm using a Viel S5 for the initial grinding, since it's at around 30 degrees anyways).

So, my situation is unique - I'm trying to speed up a very elaborate process - which my customers are willing to pay for - with BESS certificates - in a Farmer's Market environment!


BeSharp

Quote from: jvh on July 11, 2020, 11:52:23 PM
Hello,

Dutchman hit the nail on the head already...

Just a tip how to spare time a little bit - use more SVM jigs (and water trough) and sharpen more knives with one wheel if possible. Then you don't need to change wheels (water) so often.

jvh

Hi jvh, thank you for your comments. Yes, at the moment I have eight knife jigs, and plan on getting some more. The T7 water trough is a pain, I'm wondering if the T8 will help alleviate that pain? Hmm.

RickKrung

Quote from: BeSharp on July 14, 2020, 11:19:43 PM
...snip...
I live (rent) in a rather ritzy area in Vancouver (average house price: $2.5 million). I would guesstimate my sharpening as 70% Henckels / Wusthof, 20% Global, and the rest Boker, Benchmade, Opinel, Shun, etc. So good quality steel from customers who have money. Sharpening prices are not a predominant concern (I have raised prices three times in six months with no decrease in business).
...snip...

BC, Canada or WA, USA?  Or somewhere other?

What are you charging? 

I lived in Portland, OR (just across the Columbia River from Vancouver, WA for those who may not know) for over 40 yrs.  I didn't realize I was getting my knives sharpened on a Tormek by a "mobile sharpener) (or at least a wet grinder system - but in retrospect it looked like a Tormek) long before I started using one.  Rates was $5/blade.  I now live in an extremely rural area of NE OR now where the economic crosssection is spread, lots of very low income and some much higher.  I do a little sharpening for customers and did one short portion of one season at a farmers market - actually two. Lots would not or could not afford $5/blade.  Lots could and did and some have come back for repeats.

Nice that the BESS certificates are working in your market.  I doubt that would have made much difference here, although I did do a little testing at some of the markets.  No one seemed to notice much, but I didn't make much of a deal of it either. 

Rick
Quality is like buying oats.  If you want nice, clean, fresh oats, you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, that comes at a lower price.